Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Myroria on November 23, 2014, 03:38:19 AM
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In light of the new constitution vote, I think we should discuss the powers that the Ecclesia shall see fit to delegate to the Executive. In the event that Eluvatar's minimalist proposal no one objected to fails, we can always use this discussion to base a new Constitution off of.
On August 28, when I wrote what would become the Standing Ordinances, I set the delegate's term at four months and gave the office no political power. I think four months is a fine term. That sets our next election on December 28, 2014.
I think we can all agree Taijitu has grown tremendously since then. To function interregionally our delegate must have some political power to swing about. One idea I had - and I know some of you will find this sacreligious - is to allow the Citizen-Delegate to appoint the Citizen-Diplomat. These two offices must work closely together and I think it would be smoother for all of us to allow the executive to dictate foreign policy via their appointment.
That being said, I also think the delegacy should act on the Westminster model - elected by the legislature and dependent on them. An independent executive is far too susceptible to the coups that cripple other regions and that Taijitu has suffered herself. The Ecclesia should be the end-all be-all of power in Taijitu, as it is quite literally the will of all the people.
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I disagree. The current power distribution is fine, ecclesia delegates powers to whoever from the needs of the region.
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To function interregionally our delegate must have some political power to swing about. One idea I had - and I know some of you will find this sacreligious - is to allow the Citizen-Delegate to appoint the Citizen-Diplomat. These two offices must work closely together and I think it would be smoother for all of us to allow the executive to dictate foreign policy via their appointment.
This is a change I would favor strongly. The Citizen-Delegate essentially has no power currently so I don't see adding this one ability as likely to upset the power balance. It would be easier to function as even the figurehead of a region if they are able to choose their own diplomatic "team".
I disagree. The current power distribution is fine, ecclesia delegates powers to whoever from the needs of the region.
What is preferable about having the Ecclesia appoint the Citizen-Diplomat over the Citizen-Delegate doing so?
That being said, I also think the delegacy should act on the Westminster model - elected by the legislature and dependent on them. An independent executive is far too susceptible to the coups that cripple other regions and that Taijitu has suffered herself. The Ecclesia should be the end-all be-all of power in Taijitu, as it is quite literally the will of all the people.
Agreed.
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A compromise could be to allow the Delegate to appoint the Diplomat but allow the Ecclesia to recall or veto the choice. This way if a delegate appoints a hard-line raider, for instance, the people could rectify it.
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A compromise could be to allow the Delegate to appoint the Diplomat but allow the Ecclesia to recall or veto the choice. This way if a delegate appoints a hard-line raider, for instance, the people could rectify it.
That makes sense!
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I agree with the compromise.
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All of my views have been accurately described in this thread and I agree with allama and myroria.
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I suppose another question should be, who shall be Taijitu's head of state - our representative abroad? The Citizen-Delegate? The Citizen-Initiator? Someone else?
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My assumption was that the Citizen-Delegate would be Head of State as it just seems to fit the role, but I'm open to arguments otherwise.
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Those were my feelings as well. Its what the rest of the game is used to and, like you said, just seems natural.
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Citizen-Delegate is the natural choice. I also agree with what Allama and Myroria have said so far regarding the Citizen-Diplomat. I'm fine with the position being appointed but subject to recall.
As to the Westminister model, I agree with that, but it does bring up the question of what to do if the delegate (or any other elected office for that matter) is recalled. I think the best option would be just to hold an immediate election for a new one, there's just the question of what to do in the interim with the actual in-game position of delegate.
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Hopefully the outgoing delegate would be magaminous enough to not cause trouble while the transition occurs.
Alternatively, we could have an endorsee or two and kickban the recalled delegate until the next update.
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Historically we had a Vice or Lieutenant Delegate. I would support restoring that position if the Ecclesia exceeds 25 active members.
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Historically we had a Vice or Lieutenant Delegate. I would support restoring that position if the Ecclesia exceeds 25 active members.
Agreed, this could alleviate some of the worry over sudden Delegacy transitions.
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Historically we had a Vice or Lieutenant Delegate. I would support restoring that position if the Ecclesia exceeds 25 active members.
Agreed, this could alleviate some of the worry over sudden Delegacy transitions.
I disagree, there's nothing to worry about Delecacy transitions when Ecclesia is in charge. If the Delegate is absent the Ecclesia can appoint another person temporarily until there is another vote (ecclesia electoral vote for the delegate).
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I motion we move the following proposal to a vote:
Make the Citizen-Diplomat appointable by the Citizen-Delegate, subject to recall by the Ecclesia
And continue discussion regarding the vice-delegate proposal.
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I motion we move the following proposal to a vote:
Make the Citizen-Diplomat appointable by the Citizen-Delegate, subject to recall by the Ecclesia
I second the motion to move this proposal to a vote.
And continue discussion regarding the vice-delegate proposal.
As to the Vice Citizen-Delegate discussion, these seem the most obvious options:
- the Ecclesia could elect the Vice alongside the Citizen-Delegate, like a running mate
- the Ecclesia could elect the two offices separately
- the Citizen-Delegate could appoint/reappoint the Vice post-election, OR
- the Citizen-Delegate could appoint/reappoint the Vice at will
I favor the second option, with the clause that no one can run for both offices.
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I will move the first proposal to a vote shortly if there are no objections.
As for a lieutenant delegate, I favor the second option like Allama.
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Regarding the vice delegate, I think it's unnecessary. Since the Ecclesia can appoint any Delegate any time, when one is missing and is required a new one or any other fatalist event that requires a new Delegate or acting Delegate, the Ecclesia can do it, at any time.
ex. "Oh the Delegate is insane, lets replace her" majority vote, done.
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But what will be done with the in-game position of Delegate while we hold a new election? A vice-delegate position would allow a person we trust to have enough endorsements to easily replace the delegate should the Ecclesia remove them from office, without risking the delegacy falling into the hands of someone we don't trust.
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Unless we're being attacked, I doubt we would have that problem Myro, but it is a fair point. I still think we don't need it. Just make Oz the bouncer, lol, he will always have a good amount of endos, or whoever gets regional security if we do that, that makes a good case for it.
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We could make the Lieutenant Delegate an indefinitely elected post, rather than one with set terms.
Just have an automatic confidence vote once every few months.
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We could make the Lieutenant Delegate an indefinitely elected post, rather than one with set terms.
Just have an automatic confidence vote once every few months.
If you change the title to El Commandante I'm all for it. I'd like to avoid the connection to power, and we have a Commandante in Taijitu history. Also it's about time we enrich our Taijitu da-da culture after we lose daily polls and daily kitten isn't so daily anymore. ( no? come on it's a valid proposal :P )
Like the Delegate, it will be nominated by Ecclesia, it can be undefined where his term ends, recallable by Ecclesia.
I can see that happen Eluvatar.
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The proposal to make the citizen-diplomat appointed has been moved to a vote (http://forum.taijitu.org/legislative-and-treaty-votes/make-the-citizen-diplomat-appointed-by-the-citizen-delegate/).
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We could make the Lieutenant Delegate an indefinitely elected post, rather than one with set terms.
Just have an automatic confidence vote once every few months.
If we're just going to have votes on a regular basis, we may as well make it elected with a term. I think the better question is what happens in the event that the Lieutenant Delegate does have to take over. There are two options I see: one is that they become delegate for the rest of the term and a new lieutenant delegate election is held, the other option is that they remain lieutenant delegate for the rest of their term, and just hold the in-game delegacy while a new delegate proper is elected.
EDIT: Come to think of it, in the case they're just securing the in-game delegacy temporarily, instead of a single lieutenant delegate we could just have several trusted members who hold the second highest set of endos and serve indefinitely as Elu suggested.
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I dislike any of those approaches, Ecclesia can deal with such things ad hoc.
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We could make the Lieutenant Delegate an indefinitely elected post, rather than one with set terms.
Just have an automatic confidence vote once every few months.
If we're just going to have votes on a regular basis, we may as well make it elected with a term. I think the better question is what happens in the event that the Lieutenant Delegate does have to take over. There are two options I see: one is that they become delegate for the rest of the term and a new lieutenant delegate election is held, the other option is that they remain lieutenant delegate for the rest of their term, and just hold the in-game delegacy while a new delegate proper is elected.
EDIT: Come to think of it, in the case they're just securing the in-game delegacy temporarily, instead of a single lieutenant delegate we could just have several trusted members who hold the second highest set of endos and serve indefinitely as Elu suggested.
I like the idea of a group holding such a position over a single person. Vote to update the Delegacy Council periodically and all should work out well.