Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]

[Delfos]

Just dropping in to say the only reason the region is "objectively" in the worst shape you've seen it is because you all abandoned the region in 2012/2013 and you weren't around to see it then. You may think arguments are bad enough, but that pales in comparison to it being so inactive that people just wanted to turn it into an archive.

I enjoyed reading the half baked appeal to emotion though.

I'm going to fly away on my wonderful rainbow unicorn now. TTFN.

I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend with with the much wow doggy gif.    (Cit. Initiator's note: Please no vibrating gifs.)

This is my take:

I am very done with having to deal with Taijitu.

We constantly come up with agreements to reboot the region, and then we sit on our hands afterwards. It is incredibly frustrating and pointless.

I don't want to have to deal with the frustration of trying to resurrect Taijitu anymore.

I resign from my Senatorship and my Cabinet position.

I'm heading out as well.

See you another time, maybe.

http://forum.taijitu.org/general-discussion-archive/hiatus/msg159031/#msg159031

Gravy is best not thickened. I never ever put flour in my turkey gravy, usually just cider, turkey oils, chicken stock, and flavorings (bacon, turkey, onions, tomatoes, spices etc. that get strained out later).

It's not that you haven't done anything, I just think that people keep trying to write Taijitu history as if they are heroes and this is one of those things that don't help the region at all, nor it has any base in truth, SD has factually abandoned the region less times and although I do call the aftermath of his dictatorship in 2008 the Grey March because...the violence drove away some of the interesting characters that were around, we can't really say at this moment is bad (it's clearly not as bad as 2008-2010) and can't blame SD for this time around, if anything his junta helped bringing people back and there was a french revolution that endured until now. It's very unfair to impose such personal point of view just because they're not exactly what you would like Taijitu to be.

Let's see where this goes. I truly hate the status-quo they are trying to enforce but at least it's in-your-face government instead of an invisible-hand pretending we all live as equals.

Looking back, I've let it slide more than I'd wish, I really didn't have time to counter, and it was clear you and your friends didn't want me to propose anything. I can quote myself saying "The revolution was hijacked" and posts where I denounced how fake this "direct democracy" felt to me. At least what this guys are proposing doesn't seem fake, at least I will know who exactly to blame, who to contest the ideas with, I will know where it comes from and I'm sure it won't be a "half baked" french revolution theme.

[Sovereign Dixie]

Just dropping in to say the only reason the region is "objectively" in the worst shape you've seen it is because you all abandoned the region in 2012/2013 and you weren't around to see it then. You may think arguments are bad enough, but that pales in comparison to it being so inactive that people just wanted to turn it into an archive.

I enjoyed reading the half baked appeal to emotion though.

I'm going to fly away on my wonderful rainbow unicorn now. TTFN.

I wish you the best

[Of The US]

Just dropping in to say the only reason the region is "objectively" in the worst shape you've seen it is because you all abandoned the region in 2012/2013 and you weren't around to see it then. You may think arguments are bad enough, but that pales in comparison to it being so inactive that people just wanted to turn it into an archive.

I enjoyed reading the half baked appeal to emotion though.

I'm going to fly away on my wonderful rainbow unicorn now. TTFN.

We do not need this negativity, either come back when you have something constructive to say instead of feeling like you were targeted, believe me you were not, others were, you were not one of them, nor was Myro. Or, alternatively get the fuck out, you say you are going to leave, and you don't and honestly, I'm glad for that, I like to see you around, I like having the old people around here, the fact that we are fighting over such stupid stuff is also driving away new people, Taijitu will never be the perfect place, but that's because we will never be perfect people, some of us are assholes, some of us are trolls(most of us), whats disheartening to see, is that you and Myro, hell, the region as a whole has lost its sense of humor, things like this used to be taken as jokes. Myro said specifically at the beginning of the glorious revolution that he did not want to be involved in GP so he could focus on writing and RP, he went right into GP and now is feeling like hes been targeted, its not him, he wasn't targeted, he did exactly what he said he didn't want to, and its getting to him.  I think GP causes a lot of stress because of how it is, I'd like to see Myro return, maybe even you, if you stop being so melodramatic, every one here likes you, you just think they don't. Taijitu is my home on the internet, you guys are my family, some just friends who over stayed their welcome and ended up part of the family anyway, but seeing everyone fighting like this for imagined, and real slights makes it even more like that, my family fights all the time over shit like this, we may be angry now, but in the future everyone is going to realize that they said something that they now regret(except for maybe Delfos, but we all know he has no emotions.) I just hope that when all is said and done, Taijitu is working again, it hurts to see it broken as it is right now, but this is the way it always is.

[Eluvatar]

Say or think what you wish. That is your right. But honestly.. look around you. Look at what this "Glorious" so called Revolution has brought. Sure, it did good for a while. But was that because of the government style itself, or because of the effort of others which would have produced similar results in nearly any environment?

Efforts of others? I'm pretty sure I was one of those putting my efforts in.

Now, Elu. Ask yourself. Is this the Taijitu you want? Think back. Think back almost a fucking decade. Because yes, it really has been that long. Remember in your heart how this place used to be. Feel it. Deep down. Fucking. Feel. It. Now, again. Look around you! Is this what you want?

It's been a little less than nine years since January 2007. For much of 2007, we had what amounted to a permanent government of yourself, myself, PoD Gunner, and TGR. (For parts of that year, TCM or Myroria would be part of it, if I remember correctly).

The region came to be viewed as an oligarchy, and probably rightly so.

Our enormous activity came from being one of very few regions to have a truly large scale recruitment effort at the time. Today that sort of dominance of recruitment is impossible. To get to 1000 nations in the current circumstances would require maximized effort not for three months but more like seven. (At that, that region still has a lower WA population then Taijitu was able to achieve UN population in 2007, 379 to 545).

I don't believe our activity was fed by pursuit of higher status roles.

Edit: That said, we could be much more active than we had been the last few months, it just takes effort.

I know things changed while I was gone. That much is painfully evident. But a few years ago shit like this would not have been an issue. Procedure, minutia... none of that matters a hill of shit if there is nothing left to rule or legislate.

You can't have a democracy without rules. Without rules you can have either anarchy or autocracy, but not democracy.

A year of rule by this "Revolution" and this region is objectively in the worst shape I've ever seen it in. And those who have seen this progressive decay have come together to say that this is not what is best for this region. This is not what we are. This is not what we wish to be. Vote for it. Vote against it. But those of us who wish to see this mindless decay come to an end have got to do something. And so we're doing it.

It's not in the worst shape I've seen it in, not by a long shot.

PS: In case one's curious, us side by side with TCB.

Edit: And the current UCRs in the top 25 by WA population. (Excluding [region]St Abbaddon[/region] which is under occupation).

[AwesomeSaucer]

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

A collective of guilds with specific purposes (domestic, military, RP, foreign affairs, whatever else we want covered) each a collective of citizens voting within their sphere and delegating further responsibility and voting power up the ladder which would craft legislation for the citizens to vote on. Each guild would have an officer in charge, voted into office by their guild members, this executive would be headed by a triumvirate in order to keep balance and a deciding vote.

Alternatively a simpler fusion of a strong executive with a guild system. Really I want a system that has to be worked on constantly or which will organically create opportunities to utilize the legislative process with constancy.

I mean I really don't want this to be composed of only my own vision but a more synergistic collaborative effort involving a diverse set of views.

Literally everything you said was on point...except for the "climbing ladder" part.  If it were up to me, each member of a guild would be equal to one another.

[Khem]

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

A collective of guilds with specific purposes (domestic, military, RP, foreign affairs, whatever else we want covered) each a collective of citizens voting within their sphere and delegating further responsibility and voting power up the ladder which would craft legislation for the citizens to vote on. Each guild would have an officer in charge, voted into office by their guild members, this executive would be headed by a triumvirate in order to keep balance and a deciding vote.

Alternatively a simpler fusion of a strong executive with a guild system. Really I want a system that has to be worked on constantly or which will organically create opportunities to utilize the legislative process with constancy.

I mean I really don't want this to be composed of only my own vision but a more synergistic collaborative effort involving a diverse set of views.

Literally everything you said was on point...except for the "climbing ladder" part.  If it were up to me, each member of a guild would be equal to one another.

I'm also okay with this but wanted a tiered system for the purpose of teaching new members how to be part of a guilds projects before giving them full responsibility. It also would give these new folks the ability to get work under their belts (validating opinions about said work) before giving the capacity to alter the guild. I'm okay with not having such should that be the popular opinion.

[AwesomeSaucer]

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

A collective of guilds with specific purposes (domestic, military, RP, foreign affairs, whatever else we want covered) each a collective of citizens voting within their sphere and delegating further responsibility and voting power up the ladder which would craft legislation for the citizens to vote on. Each guild would have an officer in charge, voted into office by their guild members, this executive would be headed by a triumvirate in order to keep balance and a deciding vote.

Alternatively a simpler fusion of a strong executive with a guild system. Really I want a system that has to be worked on constantly or which will organically create opportunities to utilize the legislative process with constancy.

I mean I really don't want this to be composed of only my own vision but a more synergistic collaborative effort involving a diverse set of views.

Literally everything you said was on point...except for the "climbing ladder" part.  If it were up to me, each member of a guild would be equal to one another.

I'm also okay with this but wanted a tiered system for the purpose of teaching new members how to be part of a guilds projects before giving them full responsibility. It also would give these new folks the ability to get work under their belts (validating opinions about said work) before giving the capacity to alter the guild. I'm okay with not having such should that be the popular opinion.

Hmm...

What if one part of the mentor system could be to train new members in a "Guild Member in Training" position?  If we want a training position, why not stop beating around the bush and make one? 

[Prydania]

I feel as though the Guild idea is muddying the issue. Not that I disapprove of it. I actually like it. I was pushing for it to become official Centre Party policy before recent events overshadowed things at the party level.

My point is simply that the Guild idea is one that can be given its due time should we vote to establish a constitutional convention and dissolve the current government. I think that should be the focus of this thread. Discussing the the proposed scrapping of the Glorious Revolution. Everything else, including the Guild idea, can be talked about at the proposed Constitutional Convention.

[AwesomeSaucer]

I feel as though the Guild idea is muddying the issue. Not that I disapprove of it. I actually like it. I was pushing for it to become official Centre Party policy before recent events overshadowed things at the party level.

My point is simply that the Guild idea is one that can be given its due time should we vote to establish a constitutional convention and dissolve the current government. I think that should be the focus of this thread. Discussing the the proposed scrapping of the Glorious Revolution. Everything else, including the Guild idea, can be talked about at the proposed Constitutional Convention.

I see your point.  We may be getting a bit too ahead of ourselves here.

So, when shall we vote to begin the convention?

[Khem]

I feel as though the Guild idea is muddying the issue. Not that I disapprove of it. I actually like it. I was pushing for it to become official Centre Party policy before recent events overshadowed things at the party level.

My point is simply that the Guild idea is one that can be given its due time should we vote to establish a constitutional convention and dissolve the current government. I think that should be the focus of this thread. Discussing the the proposed scrapping of the Glorious Revolution. Everything else, including the Guild idea, can be talked about at the proposed Constitutional Convention.

I see your point.  We may be getting a bit too ahead of ourselves here.

So, when shall we vote to begin the convention?

After the minimum three day discussion period. So the 30th of November at the earliest.

[Prydania]

You can't have a democracy without rules. Without rules you can have either anarchy or autocracy, but not democracy.

SD isn't saying we shouldn't have rules Elu. He's supporting legislation that specifically calls for a Constitutional Convention, which is essentially a place were we'd all agree on a new set of rules.
Not thinking the current rules suffice =/= not wanting any rules.

I have no idea what the process would look like, exactly.

I imagine that it would look like any other constitutional convention. We'd all put forward proposals and discuss them, until something workable emerged. I know that's vague, but conventions like that ALWAYS are. Just as an example. The very first constitutional convention for Taijitu. What happened there? What were the rules? The procedure? It was a loose collection of people who came together and worked out a system.

Except our region was at its peak under a representative democratic government.

This is simply not true. Our region was at its peak under our initial, directly democratic Senate.

I would consider our first Senate a representative democracy. Every citizen could apply to join the Senate, but the Senate itself could approve or reject applicants.
Which meant that the Senate was more than the citizenry. It was a smaller group that represented the citizenry.
Which would be my preferred legislative model, but again. Getting ahead of myself there.

We do not need this negativity, either come back when you have something constructive to say instead of feeling like you were targeted, believe me you were not, others were, you were not one of them, nor was Myro. Or, alternatively get the fuck out, you say you are going to leave, and you don't and honestly, I'm glad for that, I like to see you around, I like having the old people around here, the fact that we are fighting over such stupid stuff is also driving away new people, Taijitu will never be the perfect place, but that's because we will never be perfect people, some of us are assholes, some of us are trolls(most of us), whats disheartening to see, is that you and Myro, hell, the region as a whole has lost its sense of humor, things like this used to be taken as jokes. Myro said specifically at the beginning of the glorious revolution that he did not want to be involved in GP so he could focus on writing and RP, he went right into GP and now is feeling like hes been targeted, its not him, he wasn't targeted, he did exactly what he said he didn't want to, and its getting to him.  I think GP causes a lot of stress because of how it is, I'd like to see Myro return, maybe even you, if you stop being so melodramatic, every one here likes you, you just think they don't. Taijitu is my home on the internet, you guys are my family, some just friends who over stayed their welcome and ended up part of the family anyway, but seeing everyone fighting like this for imagined, and real slights makes it even more like that, my family fights all the time over shit like this, we may be angry now, but in the future everyone is going to realize that they said something that they now regret(except for maybe Delfos, but we all know he has no emotions.) I just hope that when all is said and done, Taijitu is working again, it hurts to see it broken as it is right now, but this is the way it always is.

It's not that you haven't done anything, I just think that people keep trying to write Taijitu history as if they are heroes and this is one of those things that don't help the region at all, nor it has any base in truth, SD has factually abandoned the region less times and although I do call the aftermath of his dictatorship in 2008 the Grey March because...the violence drove away some of the interesting characters that were around, we can't really say at this moment is bad (it's clearly not as bad as 2008-2010) and can't blame SD for this time around, if anything his junta helped bringing people back and there was a french revolution that endured until now. It's very unfair to impose such personal point of view just because they're not exactly what you would like Taijitu to be.

Let's see where this goes. I truly hate the status-quo they are trying to enforce but at least it's in-your-face government instead of an invisible-hand pretending we all live as equals.

Looking back, I've let it slide more than I'd wish, I really didn't have time to counter, and it was clear you and your friends didn't want me to propose anything. I can quote myself saying "The revolution was hijacked" and posts where I denounced how fake this "direct democracy" felt to me. At least what this guys are proposing doesn't seem fake, at least I will know who exactly to blame, who to contest the ideas with, I will know where it comes from and I'm sure it won't be a "half baked" french revolution theme.

*applauds both OT and Delfos*

[Sovereign Dixie]

Say or think what you wish. That is your right. But honestly.. look around you. Look at what this "Glorious" so called Revolution has brought. Sure, it did good for a while. But was that because of the government style itself, or because of the effort of others which would have produced similar results in nearly any environment?

Efforts of others? I'm pretty sure I was one of those putting my efforts in.

Now, Elu. Ask yourself. Is this the Taijitu you want? Think back. Think back almost a fucking decade. Because yes, it really has been that long. Remember in your heart how this place used to be. Feel it. Deep down. Fucking. Feel. It. Now, again. Look around you! Is this what you want?

It's been a little less than nine years since January 2007. For much of 2007, we had what amounted to a permanent government of yourself, myself, PoD Gunner, and TGR. (For parts of that year, TCM or Myroria would be part of it, if I remember correctly).

The region came to be viewed as an oligarchy, and probably rightly so.

Our enormous activity came from being one of very few regions to have a truly large scale recruitment effort at the time. Today that sort of dominance of recruitment is impossible. To get to 1000 nations in the current circumstances would require maximized effort not for three months but more like seven. (At that, that region still has a lower WA population then Taijitu was able to achieve UN population in 2007, 379 to 545).

I don't believe our activity was fed by pursuit of higher status roles.

Edit: That said, we could be much more active than we had been the last few months, it just takes effort.

I know things changed while I was gone. That much is painfully evident. But a few years ago shit like this would not have been an issue. Procedure, minutia... none of that matters a hill of shit if there is nothing left to rule or legislate.

You can't have a democracy without rules. Without rules you can have either anarchy or autocracy, but not democracy.

A year of rule by this "Revolution" and this region is objectively in the worst shape I've ever seen it in. And those who have seen this progressive decay have come together to say that this is not what is best for this region. This is not what we are. This is not what we wish to be. Vote for it. Vote against it. But those of us who wish to see this mindless decay come to an end have got to do something. And so we're doing it.

It's not in the worst shape I've seen it in, not by a long shot.

PS: In case one's curious, us side by side with TCB.

Edit: And the current UCRs in the top 25 by WA population. (Excluding [region]St Abbaddon[/region] which is under occupation).

Of course you put your effort in. You put your own effort into the region plus enough for probably half a dozen others. I would never deny that.

And Prydania is correct, I'm not saying to not have rules. I was saying that right here, right now, I do not feel is the time to get so damn hung up on dotted "i"s and crossed "t"'s. But I realise that I'm probably barking up the wrong tree on that one.

Now, with regards to the Senate at the beginning, the "accept or reject" aspect. I remember that debate quite well through the bourbon soaked haze. As is the case now, some wanted it, some didn't. I will say now what I said then. I never seen the "application" as a barrier to entry. It was only ever intended as a fun way to get to know the new applicant and was intended to have an atmosphere of levity. It was never meant to be a SRS BUSINESS type of deal and most assuredly any system adopted to that end would have similar intent unless someone thought it may be a good idea to additionally perform some kind of security check but I personally dont see the need for that either.

Now, you said, Elu, that the region came to be seen as an Oligarchy. Well, that's how most of us see it now to be honest with you. More of an Oligarchy honestly, because at least in the old days you could clearly see who was calling the shots. Now, not so much. And before you mention "some people say" I will tell you that pretty much the people supporting this proposal plus a couple others not present are in agreeance with that.

[Eluvatar]

Of course you put your effort in. You put your own effort into the region plus enough for probably half a dozen others. I would never deny that.

The point of my question was that I didn't understand what you meant by "the efforts of others". I suppose we'll have to move on.

And Prydania is correct, I'm not saying to not have rules. I was saying that right here, right now, I do not feel is the time to get so damn hung up on dotted "i"s and crossed "t"'s. But I realise that I'm probably barking up the wrong tree on that one.

By voting on this proposal, I would effectively be voting on replacing the current system with . I don't want to do that, I would prefer to vote between two clear alternatives. Ah well.

Now, with regards to the Senate at the beginning, the "accept or reject" aspect. I remember that debate quite well through the bourbon soaked haze. As is the case now, some wanted it, some didn't. I will say now what I said then. I never seen the "application" as a barrier to entry. It was only ever intended as a fun way to get to know the new applicant and was intended to have an atmosphere of levity. It was never meant to be a SRS BUSINESS type of deal and most assuredly any system adopted to that end would have similar intent unless someone thought it may be a good idea to additionally perform some kind of security check but I personally dont see the need for that either.

Yes, I see the original Senate as having been a form of direct democracy, at least in practice. I don't actually have any serious objection to returning to that model of legislature. I would object to electing a small legislative council, as we've tried that 2011-2014 and it didn't work anywhere near as well as we wanted it to. I would object to giving legislative power to a single leader, as I imagine would most of us. I wouldn't object to a legislative body of all citizens who bother to join and bother to get through some sort of rite of passage. (I'd prefer to let all citizens vote in elections, however).

Now, you said, Elu, that the region came to be seen as an Oligarchy. Well, that's how most of us see it now to be honest with you. More of an Oligarchy honestly, because at least in the old days you could clearly see who was calling the shots. Now, not so much. And before you mention "some people say" I will tell you that pretty much the people supporting this proposal plus a couple others not present are in agreeance with that.

Who is the "us'" most of whom see the region as an oligarchy today?

Prydania has spoken with me about the "Some people say" problem. I don't think it's fakery. I will reiterate, however, that I think it would be helpful to the region for people to air their views openly (and civilly, obviously).

On every major regional decision, I believe the Ecclesia has held a vote. I'm baffled that the notion of a regional oligarchy has taken root.

Certainly we have some members whose opinions are often respected. Certainly over the past few months there's been some limited consistency to the sorts of decisions the Ecclesia would make. Neither an oligarchy makes.

[Gulliver]

A collective of guilds with specific purposes (domestic, military, RP, foreign affairs, whatever else we want covered) each a collective of citizens voting within their sphere and delegating further responsibility and voting power up the ladder which would craft legislation for the citizens to vote on. Each guild would have an officer in charge, voted into office by their guild members, this executive would be headed by a triumvirate in order to keep balance and a deciding vote.

Lazarus tried this exact same system with various "cadres" and an elected legislature. Most of the cadres hardly did anything, and even citizens who had a good idea about how to shake up things in their sphere couldn't act on it since they had no legislative powers. Unsurprisingly, they've since abandoned the system. From what I've seen, an open legislature and having executive offices hire newbies into deputy positions as needed has had better results in involving people.

[Sovereign Dixie]

From what I've seen, an open legislature and having executive offices hire newbies into deputy positions as needed has had better results in involving people.

I don't disagree with that, and that's essentially what I think those of us currently backing this proposal would have in mind. Ultimately its just a matter of terminology used in description but at the end of it the functionality is more or less the same.