Ecclesia Improvement Act [Discussion]

[Khem]

That is intentional. Also, right now the militia is the last damn thing on our minds. Issues at home are more important to the regions interest right now than being party to  the military agendas of others.

The militia was commanded by and composed entirely of Taijituan citizens, not foreign agents. This sort of sentiment, that there's no place in Taijitu for people who participate in military GP, that they are somehow disloyal, is exactly what drove Myroria and Funkadelia away over months, and is now driving me away.

I really hope this fresh push for a new government is not adding to you feeling driven away, losing you would be multitudes sadder than nearly any other members. I would like to make the military an inherent aspect of the structure of the new and would prefer we didn't lose our most seasoned vets in the process. I am wondering if there is a means to settle the fears of one side or the other as to how to have both the GP and non-GP aspects of things mutually respected.

[Prydania]

I disagree, also, with the notion of policy disagreements being the root cause of discord which we should preferentially address.

Take it from someone who has talked with people who exist outside of your "sphere" here. They feel like the current system does not work for them.
Is the current system the root of it all? No, but many feel it's limiting. Despite its egalitarian nature.

This is starting to feel like "some people say". I realize that some may be reticent to stand by their views, but I think that in a democracy, you kind of have to.

I'm using terms like "some people say" because these things have been told to me in private conversations. And I don't feel like sharing those sentiments publicly, much less tying people to them without their consent.
I get it, that's very frustrating. And I'll try to clarify as much as I can via appropriate channels.

[Sovereign Dixie]

Except our region was at its peak under a representative democratic government.

This is simply not true. Our region was at its peak under our initial, directly democratic Senate.

That is intentional. Also, right now the militia is the last damn thing on our minds. Issues at home are more important to the regions interest right now than being party to  the military agendas of others.

The militia was commanded by and composed entirely of Taijituan citizens, not foreign agents. This sort of sentiment, that there's no place in Taijitu for people who participate in military GP, that they are somehow disloyal, is exactly what drove Myroria and Funkadelia away over months, and is now driving me away.

That is not what I meant at all.

You are saying that because I expressed a desire to put military issues on the back burner for a brief period while we sort out internal issues means that I feel there is no place for military GP and that I somehow think they're disloyal?

Do not put words in my mouth, please. What I am saying is that the military can just sit tight a bit while we get this sorted. It wont bring about the end of the world. And what I meant by agendas of others is that simply put, if another region needs us for military backing they would just have to chill out or find some other meatshields *shrugs* Like we have much of a military capability as it is at the moment anyway.

Please do not make this a GP vs Non GP thing.

[Eluvatar]

1. An improvement act that dissolves the thing it claims to improve?

It's called sarcasm.

The lowest form of wit

2. I really don't think it's the institutions that are to blame for our level of argument. It's our behavior as individuals.

No reason not to change both.

Yes reason, if doing one makes it harder to do the other.

3. The Ecclesia is just the collection of citizens. What is the meaningful difference between the Ecclesia and a constitutional convention? The only difference I can see is the minor limitations on its own power the Ecclesia adopted with the Constitution. Why do we need those powers?

For one thing. Why abide by the constitution that we plan to be rid of? For another, doing it this way requires fewer votes to pass.

How so?

Do you mean that once you repeal the old, passing the new requires a simple majority?

Why should we buy this new law sight unseen in this way?

4. The specification of which laws are to be repealed and which are to be kept is extremely ambiguous. What is the status of the Militia Act?

That is intentional. Also, right now the militia is the last damn thing on our minds. Issues at home are more important to the regions interest right now than being party to  the military agendas of others.

Gulliver has already addressed this, but I'll note that I'm also disturbed by the description.
See below.

5. Why is the Revolutionary Calendar called out individually, where no other law is?

It was fucking stupid.

Could we not call things that our fellow region members worked on and a majority agreed to include in our regional theme "fucking stupid"?

6. Why is this being moved straight to a vote without any time for debate?

Simple. Less time debating means less chance that our legislation gets watered down and bastardized.

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

Except our region was at its peak under a representative democratic government.

This is simply not true. Our region was at its peak under our initial, directly democratic Senate.

That is intentional. Also, right now the militia is the last damn thing on our minds. Issues at home are more important to the regions interest right now than being party to  the military agendas of others.

The militia was commanded by and composed entirely of Taijituan citizens, not foreign agents. This sort of sentiment, that there's no place in Taijitu for people who participate in military GP, that they are somehow disloyal, is exactly what drove Myroria and Funkadelia away over months, and is now driving me away.

That is not what I meant at all.

You are saying that because I expressed a desire to put military issues on the back burner for a brief period while we sort out internal issues means that I feel there is no place for military GP and that I somehow think they're disloyal?

Do not put words in my mouth, please. What I am saying is that the military can just sit tight a bit while we get this sorted. It wont bring about the end of the world. And what I meant by agendas of others is that simply put, if another region needs us for military backing they would just have to chill out or find some other meatshields *shrugs* Like we have much of a military capability as it is at the moment anyway.

You're describing the mission of the Militia as "being party to  the military agendas of others." That's simply not the case. We voted to adopt a military agenda for the Militia. It's ours, we own it as a region.

Please do not make this a GP vs Non GP thing.

Please Gulliver don't make this GP vs non GP?

[Wast]

Okay, it's time to start re-organizing the discussion a bit:

As far as I can tell, the Militia issue is not central to the discussion here (although it is relevant insofar as it relates to the important question of which laws to keep/repeal).

I think the same is true of the Revolutionary Calendar. We should discuss whether to keep it, but let's make that a separate discussion (a new thread has been created for this).

[AwesomeSaucer]

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

[Eluvatar]

Ok, so general discussion of the Militia is off topic but I would argue that whether this proposal would repeal the Militia Act is or not.

Sovereign Dixie, did you mean to say the ambiguity of what laws are repealed and what laws aren't is intentional? Because that's how I read the beginning of that part of your post, and that doesn't make any sense to me.

I do specifically want to know, about any proposal we vote on, whether it would repeal the Militia Act or not.

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

I like a mixed system with a directly democratic legislature and elections for a few offices, which can appoint people to help them. If we move to electing just two offices (Delegate and Speaker) that won't be the end of the world. I'm not sure this is germane, though?

[Sovereign Dixie]

Ok. I can't be arsed to weave a tapestry of quote tags because frankly that's above my knowledge base lol.

So... here we go....

Yes reason, if doing one makes it harder to do the other.

That's an opinion.

How so?

Do you mean that once you repeal the old, passing the new requires a simple majority?

Why should we buy this new law sight unseen in this way?

No one is saying to buy it unseen. This proposal is to basically call for a new constitution which we would all work on and have input on.

Gulliver has already addressed this, but I'll note that I'm also disturbed by the description.
See below.

I have addressed the addressing.

Could we not call things that our fellow region members worked on and a majority agreed to include in our regional theme "fucking stupid"?

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. But Wast is right. This should be tabled as it is of minimal relevancy.

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

This isn't a me thing. Honestly this wasn't even my idea. But I fully support it. Also, we are following procedures within the current framework. This is 100% above board and legal. Obviously it was agreed upon that a minimum of three days would be sufficient discussion even if a proposal received the required motion to vote so quickly. This is the current democratic system in action and being followed.

You're describing the mission of the Militia as "being party to  the military agendas of others." That's simply not the case. We voted to adopt a military agenda for the Militia. It's ours, we own it as a region.

Already covered that. And again, I think Wast is right, so tabling this discussion.

Please Gulliver don't make this GP vs non GP?

Was it not clear to whom I was referring?

[St Oz]

Could we not call things that our fellow region members worked on and a majority agreed to include in our regional theme "fucking stupid"?

You know, it's just their opinion, and while I don't think it's all fucking stupid, just because someone worked on it a long time doesn't make it great. Let's just focus on the pros and cons of it, not that someone worked on it a long time.

[Of The US]

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

This isn't a me thing. Honestly this wasn't even my idea. But I fully support it. Also, we are following procedures within the current framework. This is 100% above board and legal. Obviously it was agreed upon that a minimum of three days would be sufficient discussion even if a proposal received the required motion to vote so quickly. This is the current democratic system in action and being followed.

For the record this is a me thing, I brought it up to them, they were up for it, it has not gone nearly the way I expected, I am disappointed to see that Myro left, I had hoped that we would make him a place in the new government, and I do hope that he comes back when this is all sorted out.

[Eluvatar]

Re: quote tags: I just copy+paste the opening quote tag over and over, and match the copies with quote end tags.

Yes reason, if doing one makes it harder to do the other.

That's an opinion.

So's very nearly everything else we're posting here. Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man being very nearly a universal counter-argument is not very helpful toward reaching a conclusion.

How so?

Do you mean that once you repeal the old, passing the new requires a simple majority?

Why should we buy this new law sight unseen in this way?

No one is saying to buy it unseen. This proposal is to basically call for a new constitution which we would all work on and have input on.

What I meant by buying sight unseen is that by voting to repeal the current law, we'd be voting to replace it, and then we would adopt the new law possibly by a bare majority. Thus any in the initial 2/3 majority who don't like the final outcome would be buying a bill of goods.

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

This isn't a me thing. Honestly this wasn't even my idea. But I fully support it. Also, we are following procedures within the current framework. This is 100% above board and legal. Obviously it was agreed upon that a minimum of three days would be sufficient discussion even if a proposal received the required motion to vote so quickly. This is the current democratic system in action and being followed.

The you was plural.

With the process by which a new constitution would be written and adopted left unstated, I'm not sure how above board this is.

Yes it's a legitimate proposal, though unconscionably vague in parts, but it would not task the current system with evaluation of the new system. The new system would be drafted and considered outside of the current system, and I have no idea what the process would look like, exactly.

Please Gulliver don't make this GP vs non GP?

Was it not clear to whom I was referring?

My point was that I don't think Gulliver has caused this to be perceived as "GP vs non GP" or however you want to slice it. Indeed, I think the comment you made that Gulliver and I took issue with was an example of making this "GP vs non GP".

Could we not call things that our fellow region members worked on and a majority agreed to include in our regional theme "fucking stupid"?

You know, it's just their opinion, and while I don't think it's all fucking stupid, just because someone worked on it a long time doesn't make it great. Let's just focus on the pros and cons of it, not that someone worked on it a long time.

I don't mean to suggest it should be out of bounds to criticize something of that nature, but that it's probably unhelpful and certainly disrespectful to be so rudely dismissive of it. Hopefully Gulliver isn't actually offended, but he could have been.

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

This isn't a me thing. Honestly this wasn't even my idea. But I fully support it. Also, we are following procedures within the current framework. This is 100% above board and legal. Obviously it was agreed upon that a minimum of three days would be sufficient discussion even if a proposal received the required motion to vote so quickly. This is the current democratic system in action and being followed.

For the record this is a me thing, I brought it up to them, they were up for it, it has not gone nearly the way I expected, I am disappointed to see that Myro left, I had hoped that we would make him a place in the new government, and I do hope that he comes back when this is all sorted out.

Thank you for explaining.

[Khem]

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

A collective of guilds with specific purposes (domestic, military, RP, foreign affairs, whatever else we want covered) each a collective of citizens voting within their sphere and delegating further responsibility and voting power up the ladder which would craft legislation for the citizens to vote on. Each guild would have an officer in charge, voted into office by their guild members, this executive would be headed by a triumvirate in order to keep balance and a deciding vote.

Alternatively a simpler fusion of a strong executive with a guild system. Really I want a system that has to be worked on constantly or which will organically create opportunities to utilize the legislative process with constancy.

I mean I really don't want this to be composed of only my own vision but a more synergistic collaborative effort involving a diverse set of views.

[Sovereign Dixie]

Alright.  Minus the Google Doc (we'll get back to that after we vote), I would love to know one thing from all of you...

In a concise manner (6 sentences or less), what do you want Taijitu's government to be?  A fully direct democracy with no elected positions?  A representative system with tiers and elections throughout?  A system of committees/guilds?  Or something else?

A collective of guilds with specific purposes (domestic, military, RP, foreign affairs, whatever else we want covered) each a collective of citizens voting within their sphere and delegating further responsibility and voting power up the ladder which would craft legislation for the citizens to vote on. Each guild would have an officer in charge, voted into office by their guild members, this executive would be headed by a triumvirate in order to keep balance and a deciding vote.

Alternatively a simpler fusion of a strong executive with a guild system. Really I want a system that has to be worked on constantly or which will organically create opportunities to utilize the legislative process with constancy.

I mean I really don't want this to be composed of only my own vision but a more synergistic collaborative effort involving a diverse set of views.

I actually like this idea too, just not sure we can find a way to make it work.

[Sovereign Dixie]

Re: quote tags: I just copy+paste the opening quote tag over and over, and match the copies with quote end tags.

Yes reason, if doing one makes it harder to do the other.

That's an opinion.

So's very nearly everything else we're posting here. Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man being very nearly a universal counter-argument is not very helpful toward reaching a conclusion.

How so?

Do you mean that once you repeal the old, passing the new requires a simple majority?

Why should we buy this new law sight unseen in this way?

No one is saying to buy it unseen. This proposal is to basically call for a new constitution which we would all work on and have input on.

What I meant by buying sight unseen is that by voting to repeal the current law, we'd be voting to replace it, and then we would adopt the new law possibly by a bare majority. Thus any in the initial 2/3 majority who don't like the final outcome would be buying a bill of goods.

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

This isn't a me thing. Honestly this wasn't even my idea. But I fully support it. Also, we are following procedures within the current framework. This is 100% above board and legal. Obviously it was agreed upon that a minimum of three days would be sufficient discussion even if a proposal received the required motion to vote so quickly. This is the current democratic system in action and being followed.

The you was plural.

With the process by which a new constitution would be written and adopted left unstated, I'm not sure how above board this is.

Yes it's a legitimate proposal, though unconscionably vague in parts, but it would not task the current system with evaluation of the new system. The new system would be drafted and considered outside of the current system, and I have no idea what the process would look like, exactly.

Please Gulliver don't make this GP vs non GP?

Was it not clear to whom I was referring?

My point was that I don't think Gulliver has caused this to be perceived as "GP vs non GP" or however you want to slice it. Indeed, I think the comment you made that Gulliver and I took issue with was an example of making this "GP vs non GP".

Could we not call things that our fellow region members worked on and a majority agreed to include in our regional theme "fucking stupid"?

You know, it's just their opinion, and while I don't think it's all fucking stupid, just because someone worked on it a long time doesn't make it great. Let's just focus on the pros and cons of it, not that someone worked on it a long time.

I don't mean to suggest it should be out of bounds to criticize something of that nature, but that it's probably unhelpful and certainly disrespectful to be so rudely dismissive of it. Hopefully Gulliver isn't actually offended, but he could have been.

So basically to impose exactly what you want without regard for the opinions of others?

This isn't a me thing. Honestly this wasn't even my idea. But I fully support it. Also, we are following procedures within the current framework. This is 100% above board and legal. Obviously it was agreed upon that a minimum of three days would be sufficient discussion even if a proposal received the required motion to vote so quickly. This is the current democratic system in action and being followed.

For the record this is a me thing, I brought it up to them, they were up for it, it has not gone nearly the way I expected, I am disappointed to see that Myro left, I had hoped that we would make him a place in the new government, and I do hope that he comes back when this is all sorted out.

Thank you for explaining.

  Say or think what you wish. That is your right. But honestly.. look around you. Look at what this "Glorious" so called Revolution has brought. Sure, it did good for a while. But was that because of the government style itself, or because of the effort of others which would have produced similar results in nearly any environment?
 
   Now, Elu. Ask yourself. Is this the Taijitu you want? Think back. Think back almost a fucking decade. Because yes, it really has been that long. Remember in your heart how this place used to be. Feel it. Deep down. Fucking. Feel. It. Now, again. Look around you! Is this what you want?
 
   I know things changed while I was gone. That much is painfully evident. But a few years ago shit like this would not have been an issue. Procedure, minutia... none of that matters a hill of shit if there is nothing left to rule or legislate.
 
   A year of rule by this "Revolution" and this region is objectively in the worst shape I've ever seen it in. And those who have seen this progressive decay have come together to say that this is not what is best for this region. This is not what we are. This is not what we wish to be. Vote for it. Vote against it. But those of us who wish to see this mindless decay come to an end have got to do something. And so we're doing it.

[Funkadelia]

Just dropping in to say the only reason the region is "objectively" in the worst shape you've seen it is because you all abandoned the region in 2012/2013 and you weren't around to see it then. You may think arguments are bad enough, but that pales in comparison to it being so inactive that people just wanted to turn it into an archive.

I enjoyed reading the half baked appeal to emotion though.

I'm going to fly away on my wonderful rainbow unicorn now. TTFN.