A Proposal Re: #Taijitu_Tavern

[Khem]

Well damn now I need to go to TNP to talk to Myro...

* Khem wonders if this is a genius maneuver to get Taijis into inter-regionalism...

[Gulliver]

I find myself belatedly agreeing with Gulliver. Perhaps it's best if #taijitu_tavern goes away. I'm unsure who owns it, but I hope whoever does takes the proper steps to expedite that process. For the good of everyone.

Myroria owns the channel, and he is not in the region anymore.

This is one of the few things in NS that's actually managed to bum me out in a while.

That said, it lights even more of a fire under my butt to put things back on the right track.

[St Oz]

What the fuck is this? We don't have any rules of conduct in the Ecclesia.

Maybe we need a referendum on who gets to be admin and who doesn't.

Talk to me if you have a problem, don't send me a warning.

[Delfos]

it lights even more of a fire under my butt to put things back on the right track.

GULLIVER'S BUTT 2016!

[Wast]

I considered splitting Oz' post into its own thread, but I think I will leave it here for continuity.

To anyone (bigbaldben? Khem?) who wishes to discuss the legal issue of legislating IRC channels, I recommend making a new thread to avoid cross-contamination with the other discussion going on here. I will make an effort to moderate the debate more closely if things stray off topic. If a motion is proposed and seconded, you can just post a vote after the mandatory consideration period as per the Ecclesia's rules (see here).

Late to this party and I know it's been expressed that this thread needs to end, but I think that's a mistake.  Everyone should just cool down and come to a mutually agreeable solution. 

I think this is an important point. Calming down without resolving a problem doesn't accomplish much.

[St Oz]

Late to this party and I know it's been expressed that this thread needs to end, but I think that's a mistake.  Everyone should just cool down and come to a mutually agreeable solution. 

I agree, and I'll cool down.

[Sovereign Dixie]

As his RL best friend, I can tell you that Prydania's proposal here had nothing to do with retribution, nor did he wish to stir the shit pot. It's a sad thing that someone can't try to propose solutions to problems which have occurred without it causing everyone to lose their fucking minds and degenerate into such a state.

This is not the Taijitu I remember. This is a daycare full of mean spirited "me first" thinking. Shoulders around here have enough chips on them to give me firewood for the winter.

Seriously.... what is it going to take to get us to start acting with a bit more civility towards one another?

[Guy]

1. The evil, undemocratic, self-interesed, elitist GPers in this thread have (correctly) pointed out that in general, regulating IRC channels has been a no-go in virtually every region.

The reason for that goes to the legislative competency (or jurisdiction) of NS legislatures. We generally don't tend to regulate the private conduct of our members. For example, you would not expect someone to suffer consequences due to their RL occupation, or something like that.

While clearly there is a nexus between the region and IRC channels that many of its users utilise, it still has nothing to do with the on-site region or the forum. Further, channel ownership belongs to an individual, and attempting to tell them how to best regulate something that is theirs is generally a bad idea. There may also be the types of legal or ethical issues that may arise that I highlighted in this post.

The administration of IRC channels is generally complex, and trying to set-out specific rules may also backfire.

2. Every thread seems to have devolved into a "you're a terrible person" --> "this place used to be better" --> etc.

On this issue, the bigger-picture (as often) seems to be a recurring conflict between 'gameplayers' and 'roleplayers' (or 'non-gameplayers').

Honestly, this is not conducive to embettering the region, and should be tackled head-on.

Why is there some mistrust? Even rudeness and creating offense, sometimes to the point of vilification? What would people like to see change in the region? Ask yourself that, don't answer me. And maybe before the next big controversy, tackle these questions for the benefit of the whole region.

[Prydania]

On this issue, the bigger-picture (as often) seems to be a recurring conflict between 'gameplayers' and 'roleplayers' (or 'non-gameplayers').

Honestly, this is not conducive to embettering the region, and should be tackled head-on.

Why is there some mistrust?

Well Guy, condescending sentiments such as this...

1. The evil, undemocratic, self-interesed, elitist GPers in this thread have (correctly) pointed out that in general, regulating IRC channels has been a no-go in virtually every region.

...don't help ease those tensions.

As for this specific issue? It seems like a few of my fellow RPers didn't like the idea of a gameplayer like Dyr, a person who has gone on record saying he will never engage in RP, OP'ing the region's nominal RP-centric IRC channel.
To some of us? It was the principal of the matter. You wouldn't have a RPer moderate a gameplay channel or subforum. So why was the inverse ok?
To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.

What would people like to see change in the region? Ask yourself that, don't answer me.

Well Guy, I'm going to answer you.

I would like to see more trust, more mutual respect, between the various niches here. Gameplayers and role players are two prominent examples, but there are smaller, overlapping groups. And there seems to be a lot of tension between those divides. Made worse by the fact that these lines aren't so clear cut.

So how do we achieve this mutual respect? This trust? Well a lot of that is self-evident. Let's take you and I, Guy. You're a GPer and I'm a RPer. Beyond that though? We also fall into two other niches. You seem very pro-defender, and I'm of an independent mindset. Well a few days back we were discussing independentism on the main #taijitu channel and you described the independent ideology to that of a vulture. I don't think I need to go deeper here to explain why I may not have taken that in a positive way.

I bring that up because I think it's a perfect illustration of what's wrong here. Many of us just see each other as the personification of a label or ideology. You didn't see me as a person explaining how I feel about the raider vs defender dynamic, Guy. You saw me as a thing representing an ideology you disagreed with, and that made it ok in your mind to treat me rudely.
 
We're all guilty of it to some extent. That person is a GPer. Or a RPer. Or he's just an advocate for direct democracy. Or a strong central regional government. Or a social democrat. Or a conservative. Or a libertarian. Or a socialist. And that's a problem. When someone isn't seen as a person, just a personification of a label, it's easier to brush their concerns aside. Or dismiss their point of view. Or just treat them poorly in general.

So that's what I think we need to do here. Realise that everyone is someone. Not just a label. And if we start thinking of each other as people who are greater then the niches or ideologies we subscribe to? We just might start treating each other as people too.

[Funkadelia]

To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.

Give me one example of when this ever happened.

[Prydania]

To others? It seemed like deliberate attempt by certain gameplay-centric posters to claw away whatever space RPers managed to carve out for themselves. Whether that's accurate or not? It's irrelevant. It's how some people feel. The gameplay section of this community should have gone "it's terrible that some RPers feel that way, how can we help to make things better?" rather then just dismiss the concern outright. Taijitu gameplayers did that the latter here, and it makes RPers feel like their concerns aren't being taken seriously.

Give me one example of when this ever happened.

Calming down and not reacting so hostile would help things along Funk. As I said earlier, I can't help it if you insist on having a grudge with me, but I'm trying to do what I can to make things less tense around here. You jumping down my throat at the smallest disagreement and demanding things isn't making this easier.

If you want examples? Here's Oz. It's a more rationale version of what he said earlier this thread that led to so much of this hurt.

I'm still resentful of first creating the tavern and how it ended up, hating that I even stood by and joined in the banter. I'm not saying this to make you all guilty, but the tavern is still an issue that I don't think was resolved and I hate what it still is. I called it the Tavern, because it'd be a fun light hearted room for just RP and worldbuilding, and at the time even future DnD type events.

Then it became about Gameplay and our group of friends. I like you all, but this transformation of an RP room into more of a GP room left its scar, and I'm resentful of all of you for making it that way. I don't hate that you like Gameplay, I just hate that it invaded what I thought would be a break from hearing about it in #taijitu. Seeing Dyr still there as an OP and "when Delfos is here Worldbuidling only" is like seeing an artifact of that. I apologize for losing my cool about it.

The sentiment seems clear to me. There's a feeling among some RPers that the GP community is co-opting some of our space.
No one on the GP side of the aisle has stepped up try and understand why some of us RPers feel that way. In your defence Oz's post in this thread was soaked with unnecessary anger that drowned out his point. Still though...there's a feeling among RPers that our concerns are brushed aside easily. Which is a problem when the GPers often occupy positions of perceived influence.

You responding to me stating that fact by demanding "give me one example of when this ever happened" is more of that same unhelpful attitude. You could have said "why do you or other RPers feel that way?"
Instead you opted to be hostile and demanding, in a tone that heavily suggested you were ready to reject concerns of the RP community outright.

[Gulliver]

Calming down and not reacting so hostile would help things along Funk.

There was nothing inherently hostile about what Funkadelia said (other than maybe not using "please" and that's a stretch to call that "hostile"). If everything that is said from the "GP" camp is interpreted automatically as hostile, I don't see how we're every going to have the productive conversation you've said you want.

[Prydania]

Calming down and not reacting so hostile would help things along Funk.

There was nothing inherently hostile about what Funkadelia said (other than maybe not using "please" and that's a stretch to call that "hostile"). If everything that is said from the "GP" camp is interpreted automatically as hostile, I don't see how we're every going to have the productive conversation you've said you want.

Maybe it's the folly of trying to decern mood on a text-based medium, but I fond the "tone" of "give me one example of when this ever happened" as automatically dismissive in nature.

I'll try again. Some RPers feel as if certain GP players are trying to co-opt some of our space within the Taijitu community. Is there any way people from both camps can come together and talk about that in a respectful manner?

[Funkadelia]

First of all, it's incredibly unreasonable to claim that I have been "reacting so hostile" when my attempts to be constructive have been met with claims of me being condescending or some sort of manchild or "jumping down [your] throat" when asking for proof to claims. I'm not going to say anything else to that because it's an absolute nonstarter.

I don't think any "gpers" have mindfully gone into sections of Taijitu and said to ourselves "oh, look a wonderful thing that role-players have done, let's go in and destroy it so that we can assert our dominance." It's simply not true, I don't know any other way to respond to such a shocking claim other than to categorically deny it. Like I said, you might have "a feeling" of RPers concerns being brushed aside (which they have not), when before you made the authoritative statement that they are, without giving proof of that being done, other than Oz's reference to a friendly joke we made at Delfos' expense (which he apparently didn't take as a joke, so I apologize for that even though I had no part in that). I think it's a bit paranoid to claim that "gpers" are taking everything and making it "ours", especially where I have made it clear, and I can tell you that people like Myroria and Gulliver and Dyr and Khem have agreed with, that we all see Taijitu as one whole experience. There is no division between the two in my mind, and we have always incorporated both, and that's what brought Taijitu to such success when the Revolutionary government was created in 2014. And it's what we tried to do when we had the region on CPR in 2012.

The division has been made by some people for no reason other than to attempt to discredit things that I (and others) have to say, for reasons totally unbeknown to most people. So I'm a bit surprised that the claim has been leveled that people who like to participate in NS Gameplay (who, by in large, also participate in world building and role play) "co-opt" things that are set up by roleplayers. It insinuates that we have some evil mindset where we want to inexplicably eliminate roleplay. It's rude and shocking.

[Gulliver]

Maybe it's the folly of trying to decern mood on a text-based medium, but I fond the "tone" of "give me one example of when that happened" as automatically dismissive in nature.

If everything that is said from the "RP" camp is dismissed outright, I don't see how we're ever going to have the productive conversation I most certainly do want.

And I realise that's not helpful, so I'll try again. Some RPers feel as if certain GP players are trying to co-opt some of our space within the Taijitu community. Is there any way people from both camps can come together and talk about that in a respectful manner?

This is becoming a pattern. The GP side makes a point, and it is automatically construed as some sort of unjustified attack by the RP side, followed by a platitude about finding common ground.

You say you want to find common ground, but in your response you make no acknowledgement that you may have misinterpreted Funkadelia's tone and dismissed him outright and then throw back the exact same accusation.

You say you want this to be a conversation, but you keep placing the burden of proof on the GP side and setting the bar for satisfying that burden impossibly high. That's not a fair, amicable conversation. That's a trial.

I know I messed up with #taijitu_tavern. But I am not going to let that be a sword hung over my head in perpetuity.