Taijitu

Forum Meta => Executive Offices => May 2008 - Government of Taijitu => Government Archive => Archive => Office of the Delegate => Topic started by: Sovereign Dixie on March 27, 2008, 04:58:15 PM

Title: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 27, 2008, 04:58:15 PM
Quote
The Constitution of Taijitu
Article I: Residents & Citizens

1. Any Person in possession of a Resident Nation within the Region of Taijitu may apply to be recognized as a Resident of Taijitu by the Government. The Government may revoke any Resident's status.

2. Any Person who has been a Resident of Taijitu continuously for 35 days and who has accumulated at least 50 posts on the Regional Forum may apply to be recognized as a Citizen by the Government. Once granted, Citizenship may not be revoked without prior due process unless a Citizen fails to maintain a Resident Nation.

3. Citizens may introduce legislation and may implement it as law by a majority vote. The Delegate may veto any legislation not passed by a two thirds majority. If a quarter of all Citizens or if a number of Citizens equal to a quarter of those who voted in the most recent vote request it, a referendum will be held on any legislation implemented by the Delegate. Legislation may be overturned by a two thirds majority of voting Citizens in such a referendum.

Article II: The Government of Taijitu.

1. The Delegate of Taijitu will be a Citizen, will have held Citizenship continuously for 90 days, will have accumulated at least 300 posts on the regional forum and will possess a Nationstates UN nation with a population of at least 1 billion. The Delegate will hold office for 4 monthsk, at which point a referendum will be held to determine whether or not the incumbent will retain office. Elections will be held should three fifths of those Citizens voting request it.

2. The Delegate will have a Cabinet of Ministers and will appoint and dismiss these Ministers freely. All Ministers will be Citizens, will have held Citizenship continuously for 35 days and will have accumulated at least 75 posts on the Regional Forum.

3. The Delegate will appoint from among those who have met the requirements for the office of Delegate a number of ranked successors. If the Delegate is unable to perform their duties the highest ranked successor will assume the office of Delegate. If no successor is available the Cabinet will choose a new Delegate from among themselves. The successor will retain office for the remainder of the term.

4. The Delegate will have both executive and legislative authority. The Delegate will negotiate and conclude treaties with foreign powers and will be Commander in Chief of the armed forces.

5. The Delegate or Ministers may be removed from office by a two thirds majority vote of Citizens if found guilty of violating the Constitution or Laws of Taijitu by the Judiciary or by a three quarters majority vote of Citizens.

Article III: The Judiciary

1. The Judiciary of Taijitu will be composed of at least one Justice.

2. The Delegate will appoint Justices from among those Citizens who have held Citizenship continuously for at least 90 days and have accumulated at least 300 posts on the regional forum. No person who holds the office of Delegate, Vice Delegate or Minister may hold the office of Justice. Justices will hold their office indefinitely unless removed. All appointments will be subject to confirmation by a majority of voting Citizens.

3. The Judiciary will hear cases brought before it, issue verdicts on them and pass sentences. Any verdicts and sentences will be final.

4. Justices may be removed from office by a two thirds majority vote of Citizens and the consent of the Delegate or by a three quarters majority vote of Citizens.

Article IV: Declaration of Rights

1. The freedom of speech or to petition the government will not be abridged.

2. No Citizen will be found guilty of and convicted for any crime by legislation and no Citizen will be charged under any law retroactively.

3. No Citizen will be deprived of their rights and liberties or ejected, restricted or banned from the Region or Regional Forums without being charged and  informed of the charges against them. No Citizen will when charged be denied a swift, impartial and public trial. No Citizen will be deprived of their rights and liberties or ejected, restricted or banned from the Region or Regional Forums indefinitely without the due process of the law.

4. No Citizen will be denied legal counsel if they desire it and no Citizen will be compelled to bear witness against themselves. No Citizen shall be tried for any single offense on more than one occasion and no punishment disproportionate to the offense committed will be issued.

5. No Citizen will be denied the equal protection of the Constitution and Laws of Taijitu.

6. No Citizen will be considered necessarily deprived of those rights not enumerated here.


Article V: Amendments


1. The Constitution of Taijitu may be amended by a three quarters majority vote of Citizens.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Allama on March 27, 2008, 05:13:22 PM
:clap:
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 27, 2008, 08:15:18 PM
The way someone becomes delegate is a joke.  In fact not much has changed besides the Senate is composed of citizens, and we are a dictatorship.  I don't see how the current system stopped you from doing any of this.  You appoint the MoEA, you appoint who runs the army.

Tell me how this new constitution allows you do complete your goals, and why the other one did not.

I don't see how this inspires anyone into action.

If someone could explain this to me, thanks.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Durnia on March 27, 2008, 08:26:30 PM
I agree.

This is just the old constitution minus an independent Senate to oppose your legislation, congratulations.

I have a question,

Quote
3. The Delegate will appoint from among those who have met the requirements for the office of Delegate a number of ranked successors. If the Delegate is unable to perform their duties the highest ranked successor will assume the office of Delegate. If no successor is available the Cabinet will choose a new Delegate from among themselves.

4. The Delegate will have both executive and legislative authority. The Delegate will negotiate and conclude treaties with foreign powers and will be Commander in Chief of the armed forces.

5. The Delegate or Ministers may be removed from office by a two thirds majority vote of Citizens if found guilty of violating the Constitution or Laws of Taijitu by the Judiciary or by a three quarters majority vote of Citizens.

Does this mean that if the delegate is impeached by the citizens, then the delegacy is handed over to the next in line? If so this is no democracy, it is a quirky, oligarchy/dictatorship.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 27, 2008, 08:35:08 PM
  So you're saying, that the government is the same, except for 2 out of 3 branches of it?

  First off, I really don't see this as a total dictatorship, as the citizenry has the ability to remove the Delegate, Ministers, or the Judiciary. That is not a feature prevalent in dictatorships. At least not in malevolent ones.

 As for the Citizen Assembly, it's creation removes the elitism often displayed in the senate, and makes democratic legislation accessible to everyone, the removal of representative legislation, and the introduction of participatory legislation.

  Assuming, for a moment, you're right in that this could have all been accomplished under the old system, (I really don't think it could.. I seen what happens when someone tried to introduce any major reform into that senate...) it would have taken weeks if not months to bring about. In all likelihood however, most reforms were debated endlessly and fruitlessly for days and die out due to an inability to compromise.

 You can't force activity, but you can make sure that the mechanics are in place to try to encourage it. This new constitution is shorter, and devoid of legalese both in style and content. It is designed so that a n00b off of the feeder can take a look at it, and know within a few minutes, how things are ran. The simplified structure of the executive branch will foster greater communication and hopefully as a consequence, produce results in a more timely and efficient manner.


@ Durnia, the Citizen Assembly has the ability to overturn any legislation enacted by the delegate by voting against it with a 2/3 majority. The Delegate, on the other hand, can only veto legislation from the Citizen Assembly if it was passed with less than a 2/3 majority. The citizens hold the trump card in that one.

   Your understanding is correct of succession in the event of resignation/removal. The next appointed successor would take office. Is the executive branch democratic? No, it's not.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Durnia on March 27, 2008, 08:45:22 PM
Thanks for answering my question.

I'm out of this region until or if this is overturned, and the old constitution restored.

My thanks.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 27, 2008, 08:47:08 PM
This is all very lulzy. Glad I'm not in the government anymore.  :clap:
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Eientei on March 27, 2008, 08:49:16 PM
Will there be any requirements for a quorum in voting?  Say a citizen brings up a vote to remove the Delegate.  If four citizens vote for, and one against, would that be enough for removal?  (Hypothetically, of course.)
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Delfos on March 27, 2008, 09:02:53 PM
(http://movietonic.com/hollywood/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/800px-simpsons_angry_mob.png)
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: PoD Gunner on March 27, 2008, 09:40:08 PM
Please refrain from silly stuff in here. If you got nothing productive to say, go spam somewhere else.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 27, 2008, 10:37:41 PM
Spam? Who spammed? Anyway I have to say I am disappointed by this new Constitution. Taking power and making it lopsided in your favor is sad. I actually believed you when you said this wasn't a power grab. Guess you really can't trust anyone in this game.  :-\
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Eientei on March 27, 2008, 10:45:02 PM
I'm fine with the new constitution as it now stands.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: PoD Gunner on March 27, 2008, 10:48:17 PM
I think that, again, you are too quick to judge. I'm willing to take that chance and have you doubt me, or have anyone else doubt me. This is a NS-connected move with one aim: that of reinvigorating Taijitu. If you see things differently, I'll have to live with it. Accusing me of lying and of deceit is however something I don't have to live with. If you see this a power grab, I suggest you remove your blindfold. That would have been the simplest option for either SD or myself to get a kick out of NS. I'm not doing it. What the trust issue is concerned, it's you disappointing me this time, not vice-versa.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 27, 2008, 10:58:05 PM
The way this Constitution is setup SD will be Delegate for life. A majority vote of 3/5ths to hold an election. Wow. It'd take a miracle to get those numbers to hold an election.    Maybe you need to remove your blindfold and read that Constitution. And you can be disappointed with me all you like. It changes nothing about how I feel about this Constitution. It's the reason I had my citizenship removed. I've even contemplated moving my nation out because of the language of it. The word Resident.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Myroria on March 27, 2008, 11:07:47 PM
Laughable.

The first Constitution is the REAL one.

Executive - dictatorial. We must have ELECTIONS, not a referendum to DECIDE IF WE SHOULD.

Legislative - non-existant.

Judiciary - Dictatorship, even more so than the executive. One justice? That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Akka-Wakka on March 27, 2008, 11:16:58 PM
I still don't see how SD can suspend the Senate and the Old constitution while claiming legitimacy.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Mahasoor on March 27, 2008, 11:17:42 PM
Are you kidding?  I prefer the old constitution.  I believe I will begin looking for a new region which is a shame, I had rather begun to enjoy my stay in taijitu.

eta  maybe.  i might be speaking too hastily.  I'll give it a bit to see how this pans out, but I'm majorly disappointed in the so far so called "MAJOR" changes.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Durnia on March 27, 2008, 11:20:18 PM
Laughable.

The first Constitution is the REAL one.

Executive - dictatorial. We must have ELECTIONS, not a referendum to DECIDE IF WE SHOULD.

No, the referendum on the delegate would merely install the delegate's second in command to power, as previously clarified by Sovereign Dixie.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Myroria on March 27, 2008, 11:21:13 PM
I would like to move for the impeachment of the Delegate of Taijitu.

Quote
Article 1 of the pretender new constitution

5. The Delegate or Ministers may be removed from office by a two thirds majority vote of Citizens if found guilty of violating the Constitution or Laws of Taijitu by the Judiciary or by a three quarters majority vote of Citizens.

Shall we start the vote?
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Aquatoria on March 27, 2008, 11:23:52 PM
This constitution seems to sound similar to the way the Romans did things when the Republic became an Empire. It is an olrigarcy, but I would like to see where this goes. Maybe this might work.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Eientei on March 27, 2008, 11:24:04 PM
If 3/5ths of citizens vote against in a referendum, there's automatically an election for a new delegate, at least as I understand it.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 27, 2008, 11:28:45 PM
Did you read the fucking thing? THERE ARE ELECTIONS.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 27, 2008, 11:29:36 PM
Laughable.

The first Constitution is the REAL one.

Executive - dictatorial. We must have ELECTIONS, not a referendum to DECIDE IF WE SHOULD.

No, the referendum on the delegate would merely install the delegate's second in command to power, as previously clarified by Sovereign Dixie.

No he edited it so the referendum would cause elections.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Gulliver on March 27, 2008, 11:29:42 PM
Opinions regardless, this seems to be riddled with various inconsistencies, sillinesses and contradictions since it was changed behind my back.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Mahasoor on March 27, 2008, 11:31:15 PM
I love that there was zero input asked for from the general assembly.  If you're going to essentially change everything about the way taijitu is run, don't the peons get even the slightest bit of a say in the matter?  Or are you too busy laughing it up on your high horse to give any thought to how we might react to things?
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Chairman Steve on March 27, 2008, 11:32:01 PM
Judiciary - Dictatorship, even more so than the executive. One justice? That's ridiculous.

OH YEAH!
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Gulliver on March 27, 2008, 11:38:21 PM
Yes! My plan to rule as absolute GOD of all has finally come to fruition. It's just as Myroria says: kneel and bow before me lest you feel the swift sting of my fiery wrath! As they say, resistance is futile, but do bother with it anyway! It will amuse your new Lord. For starters, I suggest joining Delfos's little Communist revolution. It's so terribly droll at the moment and we can't have me bored can we? I might go lopping heads left and right without a care, oh yes.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 28, 2008, 12:04:11 AM
Ok, there were changes made *after* it was posted, in the hopes of alleviating concerns expressed by many. (My apologies prag, it was somewhat of a spur of the moment thing in a convo with GMT, myself, OC, Eientei and KoolAid Man)

There are elections, triggered by the referendum. As well as an citizen override for Delegate Vetoes of amendments.

Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 28, 2008, 12:41:22 AM
Myro, I really don't know what you're on about. You didnt even participate in the old senate! Now suddenly that this happens you set up talk radio?? As I recall you were a senator once, (dont recall what happened, i think ya got screwed over by the 5 vote thing or something... dont remember) but in any event, if that's the case you didn't re-apply (can;t say as I blame you) but now suddenly you get all up in arms. I don't get it.

Oh, and the Judiciary reads AT LEAST ONE JUSTICE.... once again, I'm thinking alot of you are just wanting something to bitch about.

Now, no where did I say I would not be taking input. So keep your knickers out of a bunch. We've already taken some input from citizens and we'll continue to do so. This is not neccesarily the final draft.

Furthermore, look at these threads, this one, and the original thread in which I announced all of this. Sure, there are a lot of posts, but most of it is the same handful of people. Now, I'm not saying that means those silent support me, but what I am saying is that it goes to illustrate the mammoth levels of laziness in this region. It's taken this to even get a bit of a reaction out of y'all. 

We're going to get this hammered out, and then we're going to get to work. We're going to get the new legislature up and running, and then, if y'all want to have my head on a plate, so be it. But yanno at lease someone will have tried to do something!
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Mahasoor on March 28, 2008, 01:27:16 AM
What's that phrase, if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all?

I'll be interested to see where this goes.  So far I'm not amazed.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Gulliver on March 28, 2008, 02:47:20 AM
It's probably for the best, gawking is a terrible habit.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: PoD Gunner on March 28, 2008, 01:59:01 PM
We're not aiming to impress anybody but to revive the region. Seeing as some of the ones posting in this thread are so quick to threaten to look for another region, although their dedication to Taijitu cannot be even summarized up to now in terms of NS game-play, is however enchanting.
And make no mistake about it, this attempt is resting on the assumption that those wishing to make citizenship and participate at running the region, will also deliver, not just benefit. It is the only way most of us foresee to reinvigorate the region. We need a strong line of delegates to stand the slightest chance of becoming a major player in NS again, it is something i know for a fact.

If you are looking for a cosy place and a cute but inefficient system in which to just reside, drop in from time to time and have a vote on a piece of legislation most don't even bother reading and vote every 3 months on a delegate based on everything else but his experience in NS and the advantages he can bring in-game for the region, then i agree, this new system it's not the place to be. If you're looking to get involved, help Taijitu grow back to its strength, be active and really dedicate yourself in order to achieve a position, the yes, this could be the ideal place for you. We haven't taken away your right to choose, to protest, to decide or your personal freedoms. What political participation is concerned, it's either a real one or it's not. We all love to have fun while working, to crack jokes and to spam, but that will take us nowhere in terms of game-play.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Durnia on March 28, 2008, 04:06:51 PM
People come here for different reasons, by trying to force everyone to be very active the minority of you will only alienate the majority who take little interest in this side of Taijitu. Just because you, SD and I-S, (none of whom could even remotely claim to be the most active people here with SD and I-S frequently disappearing for months then coming back) think this is how Taijitu should be, doesn't mean everyone else does, and that you are right. Many people including myself don't have the time to join the army, or diplomatic service, or spend hours recruiting, punish us if you like but it will not get you anywhere. This is why you should have consulted others on this new direction, and cannot complain when you get the inevitable backlash against your actions.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 28, 2008, 05:47:04 PM
 I've only taken 2 leaves of absence, and when I've been here (which has far out weighed the times that I have not been, I might add) I have been one of the most active (though not always one of the most visible) players. No where did gunner say that one had to spend hours recruiting, but for one to say they don't have 10 mins a day to send a few TG's is rather.... silly. Also, not having time to join the army? How long does that take?
1) Joining the UN 1 or 2 minutes (and that's stretching it)
2) Moving your region to a designated place 1 minute
3 Endorsing the target nation .... 5 seconds

So that doesn't really hold water.

If you're looking for a social site, then there are plenty of those on the net. We're not saying you HAVE to do anything, bu we are saying that this site is based off of a GAME. To bitch that we're saying people should actually PLAY said game... well, now it's my turn to say something is laughable.

The unwillingness of many to recruit for 5 or 10 minutes a day means that those of us who are willing to do it must take HOURS a week, or sometimes A DAY (if you don't believe me, ask Kor, or Prag) to make a difference. NOW who's being punished? Now who's suffering at the hands of whom? If you can sit for hours on the forum, or hours on IRC, then you've got the time to recruit, you've got the time to join the army, you've got the time to make a welcome post for a new player. You've got the time to do lots of shit, that actually entails NS GAMEPLAY.

So don't make that claim. It's ridiculous.

And Kor was absolutely right, this is quite lulzy. It's lulzy that in the face of such sloth and apathy, that suddenly, the people who couldn't be bothered to play NS, now suddenly have plenty of time to sit here and throw tomatoes at Gunner, Praggie, and I. Now there's some fucking lulz.

If you really don't have time to do anything except make a few posts on the forum or whatever, that's fine. No one's going ot make you, but don't go bitching when those of us who think thei GAME should actually (ZOMG) be PLAYED make changes to encourage activity.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 28, 2008, 09:26:16 PM
SD is right about the recruiting bit. I wish more people committed to recruiting. It always annoyed me that people bitched about wanting to recruit and when they were masked they'd recruit 3 or 4 nations and quit. Back when it was Prag, Khab, and myself recruiting we had to TG 200 nations each just to keep up. While I may not agree with all the changes being made, I do honestly still care about this region. In fact I will start recruiting again for 20 minutes a day from here on out.

Side note: Spam is made of lulz.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Delfos on March 28, 2008, 11:39:05 PM
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41071000/jpg/_41071285_mob3_ap_300.jpg)
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Gulliver on March 29, 2008, 12:55:59 AM
(http://movietonic.com/hollywood/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/800px-simpsons_angry_mob.png)

(http://www.gsdcv.org.au/images/puppy.jpg)

You love the puppy, don't you Delfos? Of course you do.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41071000/jpg/_41071285_mob3_ap_300.jpg)

For variety, here's an equally adorable kitten.

(http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Sidebox-Kitten-Thinks-R.jpg)

You love it too, don't you?
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 29, 2008, 12:57:13 AM
I love pussy!
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Myroria on March 29, 2008, 12:58:03 AM
YOU TOOK MY CHEEZBURGER KITTENS.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Annex on March 29, 2008, 01:19:46 AM
People come here for different reasons, by trying to force everyone to be very active the minority of you will only alienate the majority who take little interest in this side of Taijitu. Just because you, SD and I-S, (none of whom could even remotely claim to be the most active people here with SD and I-S frequently disappearing for months then coming back) think this is how Taijitu should be, doesn't mean everyone else does, and that you are right. Many people including myself don't have the time to join the army, or diplomatic service, or spend hours recruiting, punish us if you like but it will not get you anywhere. This is why you should have consulted others on this new direction, and cannot complain when you get the inevitable backlash against your actions.

Indeed. Already there is protesting; I think it would be prudent to take these changes slowly. How to manage that from teh dramatic upheaval that initiated things, I don't know. Maybe we could listen to voices of dissent rather than crushing them beneath mountains of spam.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 29, 2008, 01:54:38 AM
I have listened to voices of dissent. I have crushed delfos beneath mountains of spam, but he doesn't really count, cause he's an idiot. The others, I have listened to, at least to some degree. Collectively, I have, if not each and everyone on an individual basis.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Xyrael on March 29, 2008, 03:55:31 AM
Have you also crushed Delfos by banning him?

You want to listen to voices of dissent, I'll make nice clear points to you.

Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Limitless Events on March 29, 2008, 04:01:30 AM
Delfos was not banned for dissent. He was banned for his repeated behavior in PMs when given a warning by an admin. I'm tired of people abusing the admins and the system and then trying to get away with it. I'm also tired of people not knowing the facts and then blowing things way out of proportion without the slightest hint as to what they are
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 29, 2008, 04:03:00 AM
This is silly.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Gulliver on March 29, 2008, 04:25:36 AM
My substantial amusement would appear to confirm this.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Limitless Events on March 29, 2008, 04:30:06 AM
If this was really fascism your post would've been deleted the second you posted it, your account probably would've been banned, and Delfos would've been long gone
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Xyrael on March 29, 2008, 04:45:22 AM
Yeah, whatever. Politics in Taijitu has long sickened me. I'll stick to ignoring it, it's a hegemony anyways. The only reason I'm posting is because frankly the way this coup was taken was offensive. What's to keep you from banning me anyways? As for blowing things out of proportion, just because I don't agree with what's happening I'm blowing things out of proportion? I'm just using flashy rhetoric to counter flashy rhetoric.

And you still have yet to mention SD's thus far failure to represent Taijitu in the UN. Doesn't the Delegate need UN Endorsements in the first place, or is the game totally about military now. He wants to say we're lazy because we can't take the 15 minutes to play little green army men or 10 minutes to spam people making duplicate accounts when he can't take the 5 seconds to vote in the UN? The last UN Resolution to be discussed on the forum was February 15th.

And if you go with the bullshit that no one says anything anyways, you fail as a Delegate and I can't wait for the next election if there ever is one.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: PoD Gunner on March 29, 2008, 10:24:51 AM
Fair is fair, one of the duties of the sitting delegate is taking the time to vote on the resolutions and it is a duty that has been ignored. I am sure SDixie will resume it. Now, whether voting on the UN issues is also an aspect of NS game-play that is indeed enjoyable, like answering your daily issues, is an open matter, as some take pleasure in  it while some think it is boring. But that is beside the point, Xyrael's affirmation stands.

Now, for all players that still play NS, the military aspect is undeniably the strongest dynamic feature, as it powers politics and international conflict respectively interaction. That is a fact. Also, Xy, your motivation for not being involved is dramatic but it's also just silly. Recruiting for your region is community service. I know that the crushing majority of regions in NS have a small group of players doing it, if you think that means that asking for implication is dictatorial, I guess we should deny evolution and hunt us some mammoths. If you don't want to play the game, you'll have to be content with the activity this game has sparkled that has nothing to do with the game. If you didn't understand what Limi was implying, I'll repeat it: your bombastic assertions lack real in-game background. Saying words that wiggle their tail in a dramatic manner but mean nothing is a feature much closer to what you seem to think SD or ourselves stand for. Ignorance is a bliss they say, I wouldn't know, didn't try it.

Matt, please, I was kind of expecting more insight from you and at least some valid arguments. Also, considering how you seem to have ended your public career in NS, from a point where your implication in Taijitu has dropped out completely, makes me raise an eyebrow. Please read SD's answer, I think those are all points you are very aware of. Nobody is complaining about reactions, but please don't ask us to put a blindfold on and die. That is a choice we'd rather avoid making.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Akka-Wakka on March 29, 2008, 12:00:50 PM
You know want to know something really funny considering the circumstances?

(click to show/hide)

Sure, everyone can go and do there screaming and shouting (or cute puppy posting in Prag's case ;) ), but.... well, actually I just wanted an excuse to say "cute puppy posting." :P
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Miller18 on March 29, 2008, 01:31:34 PM
"cute puppy posting."

It does kind of roll off the tounge dosen't it.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Myroria on March 29, 2008, 01:36:31 PM
As much as I hate Delfos, and one side of me wants to throw up my arms and congratulate SDixie for doing this, it really is a crime under the old (real) constitution. If I look the other way about this, than it's a gateway crime. I've been a jackass my entire time here, and no one's banned me.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 29, 2008, 02:41:08 PM
First out... I actually was unaware of Delfos being banned until reading these posts. My internet went out yesterday evening and evidently did not come back up until sometime this morning. I hadn't intended on banning him, and was content to take his idiocy as a prime opportunity for some lulz. Limi does raise a good point however, in that harassing admins is something that should be taken seriously.. I'll look into it.

1. Xy, No I am not a fascist, for the prime reasons already stated by Limi and Gunner.

2. I-S and what he has or has not done with RP is not a governmental issue. RP is self governning. If there is an issue the RP community would like us to step in momentarily to resolve, they need to contact us.

3. The last UN Resolution vote I had featured such abysmal turnout that I figured, frankly, that the majority of the region on the forum just didn't give a crap. No requests or complaints have been lodged to me via TG, and I'll be the first to admit, I dont check the RMB all that often (maybe once a day) Thank you for the critique however, and I'll endevour to perform better in that aspect.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Xyrael on March 29, 2008, 07:50:20 PM
First off, I've slept on it. So, I'll start with some apologies. I'm sorry for being offensive :P I busted up my knee a few days ago and it was killing me yesterday  ::) Also, as for my sleu of spammings, I stopped that shortly after I started, mostly because it seemed pointless even to myself. Would have preferred you messaged me first to edit them, I'd have gladly agreed, but that's quite fine.

So, to the points mentioned.

I never knew Delfos was harassing admins by PM. If this is true, then I end my protest to his banning. Even I am not silly enough to continue pushing buttons.

And if abysmal turnouts were the reason for stopping votes then Switzerland wouldn't be a democracy. They have a voter turnout rate somewhere in the 10's. If you want to fix the low voter turnout rate, try to make it more well known on the Taijitu region boards that a vote is in progress. There's a few people there that would probably vote. If you'd like, I could help promote voter turnout by "advertising" the vote by posting about it every 12 hours or whenever the original advertisement is cleared from the board. I could also start a subscription list and have all people who want their votes heard to PM me in game and I'll relay that to the forum, since a lot of people don't want to participate in the game beyond the nationstates.org website. If there's any way I can be of assistance, I'd be glad to help.

So next topic, I never said RP was a governmental issue. Just commented that I couldn't contact him for any reason whatsoever, and then stated that RP was my own reason for wanting to contact him. I imagine some others may have wanted to contact him for government, although there was probably nothing pressing to have been requested.

As for Myro, I agree with you. Had this been in SD's platform running for office I'd have voted for it. Honestly I feel that a bit of authoritarian power is a nice way to reinvigorate the societies. I'm just upset it had to make a farce of what the old laws stood for and was done seemingly without anyones consent, and that SD and I-S immediately took apparently defensive postures when stating what was happening. Ideally I would have rather had it put up for a forum (non-Senate) vote showing an idea of what SD's new plan will create and why the old plan was flawed. He probably would have had a lot of people in agreement with him.

Pod, my primary reasons for not recruiting is a relative lack of interest in PM'ing people. I can do it, but I'd need a little motivation to be of service. Perhaps public servants can receive a cool flashy tag that shows they're assisting the region? A lot of people wanted to be senators just to be red... PUR included in that lol and my gf wanted to apply just to be red too. My primary reasons for not wanting to be in the military is a complete disinterest in possessing multiple e-mail accounts and then me forgetting those passwords etc. I also have 15 hours of college a week, and a girl to devote my attention to. Not sure I'd have the time to devote to the army and be at readiness when needed.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 29, 2008, 09:28:56 PM
No worries Xy, we all have our moments.

As for your thoughts on the UN proposal thing, thank you for your offer! I like it. If you would do the following, I'd appreciate it.....

1)When new Resolutions become available, please post them in my office. I've tried a million times to remember to do it, and that is precisely how many failures I've had with the matter.

2)Do what you said about plugging it on the RMB, it could be a good way to get some ppl on the forum. I used to accept votes via TG in game as well, but I will no longer do so. Back when I did it, there were a couple of times when the vote recieved by TG caused the end result to be different than what the forum total had. People then, as they love to do, bitched about it and said I was skewing the votes. (I'd have to actually care about those silly resolutions in order to skew the vote, but that's besides the point.) So, henceforth, they'll have to be on forum, where they can be documented and verified for all to see.

Next up. I-S, he's not always around, I know. He's got college and what not, and from what he tells me it's been busting his balls lately. If you have an issue that you feel needs government attention, try to contact me first. I'm on IRC alot, I'm on AIM, Yahoo, and MSN. If you can't get ahold of me, PoD Gunner would be your next best bet. If neither are around, send a PM and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Response time should not be longer than 24 hours at the absolute most.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 29, 2008, 10:51:42 PM
If I-S can not be relied on, he simply should not be in the executive  branch.  I respect his RL issues, but if you guys really plan on moving us off of our asses, IS is not someone who should represent you in anyway.

Nothing is more offensive then someone who has no legs to stand on telling me to get off my ass.  I hope the new government takes steps to remove the weakest member. 

Nothing personal aginst IS, but the direction the region is going in, there is no room for inactive members leading the charge.

Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Prydania on March 30, 2008, 04:20:05 AM
If I-S can not be relied on, he simply should not be in the executive  branch.  I respect his RL issues, but if you guys really plan on moving us off of our asses, IS is not someone who should represent you in anyway.

Nothing is more offensive then someone who has no legs to stand on telling me to get off my ass.  I hope the new government takes steps to remove the weakest member. 

Nothing personal aginst IS, but the direction the region is going in, there is no room for inactive members leading the charge.


Ah, I feel loved.
I'm sure I know who you are, but your new identity has made it difficult to ID you.

As for RP issues, guess what? I don't RP here any more. Should I have said something? Yes, in retrospect I should have.
But that doesn't excuse the RP community for failing to see the reality of the situation. At what point do you think someone in the RP community here should have realized both G-C and myself weren't coming back and started a motion to vote in new mods?
Hell, that's how I got the job in the first place. Bustos stopped showing up. We didn't wait for him to get back, at a certain point we said "Bustos is gone, lets vote for a new mod."
How hard would that have been to do this time around? True, I should have said something, but at some point it should have become obvious to everyone and anyone still involved in Taijitu RP.
At some point the burden shifted from me having to inform you all that I had left to you having to realize that action should have been taken to rectify the RP mod situation. At a certain point, oh, say a month ago at the latest, it stopped being my responsibility to tell you, and it became your responsibility to make it happen.

And don't feed me dribble about this not being personal. I have no idea who you are exactly. It could very well be personal, and on the other hand, it may not be. That all depends on who you are. I don't know the answer to that question, so of course I'm going to take it personally.

As for RL, try having to write three essays in three weeks, study for final exams which consist of nothing but essays, and keep on top of weekly class readings. Throw a job on top of that, and well my life's pretty busy right now. Now factor in I have a girlfriend who lives in a different city then I do, and I tend to want to spend my free time with her.
College has a tendency to kick you on your ass and keep you there until summer roles around.
A few months ago SD asked me if I wanted in on this new order. I said yes, for reasons I've already addressed. Along side that I have my RL stuff to work on.
I'm quite capable of deciding if and when I bite off more then I can chew, and I'm more then capable of detaching myself from lesser responsibilities if I feel I'm overwhelmed. I don't need some two-bit coward hiding behind a shiny new user name to tell me.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 30, 2008, 04:24:20 AM
Of Crazed reporting, if you are going to be active is fine.  I was just going by what SD was saying that your RL is taking time away.

Also, this was planned months ago?  If it was you guys really didn't try reform the region before throwing away the old government.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Xyrael on March 30, 2008, 04:29:41 AM
My mention about RP was that I wanted to assume control of the DSA from you. I was going to do it without your permission assuming you had left, asked SD for permission he told me to ask you. The whole moderator idea is viable de jure but isn't used in practice so fell into disarray and is largely ignored, I was the one who motioned for Bustos' removal but it didn't cross even my mind until this most recent mentioning. The long distance gf and college, trust me I understand all that fully ;) Senior here working on his History 498, practically writing an essay a week as well, very entertaining stuff indeed.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Prydania on March 30, 2008, 04:38:44 AM
Of Crazed reporting, if you are going to be active is fine.  I was just going by what SD was saying that your RL is taking time away.
Yes, RL is taking time away. As it is for SD, as it is for PoD, as it is for Prag, as it is for yourself. We all have actual lives detached from this place, I hope no one here puts this place ahead of anything of value in their own life.
I've been swamped since January of this year, and I made the decision to quit RP here in December of last year.

In the past, if I feel I have way to much going on, I cut the cord on some lesser responsibilities. I don't feel overwhelmed here. I still feel I can contribute to this new order, heck I've been in on it longer then some other members. If or when I feel I can no longer contribute here I will leave on my own free will. I've done so in similar situations in the past, and I see no reason why my judgement would be impaired this time around.
But like I said earlier, I don't need anyone else to passive aggressively suggest it for me.

Quote
Also, this was planned months ago?  If it was you guys really didn't try reform the region before throwing away the old government.
We tried that. That was the point of the Conservative Party of Taijitu, the Myro/I-S Delegate ticket, and the various Senators who proposed reform in the Senate, only to be shot down. The Senate and it's oligarchy latched onto power and wasn't willing to change. Frustrated at the Senate's own selfishness we left, and soon afterwards we formed the movement for a new order.

We tried reform, it didn't work.

Xy, if you wanted control of the DSA, you could have just IMed me over AIM or MSN. I know for a fact you have my MSN screen name.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 30, 2008, 04:39:49 AM
(This is a replacement post, Silanis had forgotten to log out, and I forgot to check behind her. Do'h!)

Thanks for bein' cool OC.  Eh, I wouldn't say months reallly, to be honest, I forget when we seriously started talking about it.

I think each of us had our moment with the senate when we realised that it was neigh on impossible to get results. Look at what happened with me when I proposed some kind of Exec check on the legislative. Look at limi's experience where the senate got mired down over debating the significance of a single word. I'm sure Pragmia, a former speaker of the Senate, has a few horror stories too.

It's not so much, I think, that we didn't try to reform through the existing system. It's that we seen how even simple things seem to get deadlocked (well, my proposal wasn't so simple. the Exec balance against the Legislature... The delegate got a vote out of it, better than nothing I suppose, but a far cry from what I felt was needed)

And, yanno, I could very well be wrong about this, but the perception I got from the senate, was that there were quite a few members who simply enjoyed debating and the act of it, more than the prospect of doing anything meaningful. I know you weren't that way OC, as you tend to keep your comments short and to the point. But there seemed to me at least, a good measure of that going on.

Also, from a strictly OOC standpoint, we thought this more dramatic move, and the shake up it would cause, could do the region a bit of good, yanno?
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Eientei on March 30, 2008, 04:43:04 AM
I guess the whole region has had a nice lesson in the frustrations of legislating and bickering over single sentences and words and so on.  I was only in the Senate for a couple of weeks, and that was some time ago, but I got that sense as well.

I still can't agree with how this whole thing was conducted out of principle, but maybe you're right that it was better for the region in terms of activity.  You all certainly stirred things up a lot.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Xyrael on March 30, 2008, 05:57:08 AM
Honestly, I never believed in the Senate. It never talked about anything relevant really, I think Soly actually posted something about the official forum drink being kool-aid. Indeed, at some point it became idiotic. And Minister of Awesome. The Senate was indeed decrepit and superficial, I like this citizen assembly idea. I hope it works.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 30, 2008, 12:25:58 PM
God damn if some people try to have fun once in awhile.  They are destroying this region.  They are the leaches that suck the life force from all the others.

THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 30, 2008, 12:26:33 PM
If you ever insult Kool Aid again you will die a slow horrible death.  :P

Most of that silly stuff was for fun. I have a suggestion for you Xy. GET AN IMAGINATION!

Also, oc is awesome and should be recognized as such. And SD is inventing words. Wasn't sure if I was the only one who noticed it.  :D

This message has been brought to you by the Age of Lulz. ^_^
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 30, 2008, 12:28:37 PM
SERIOUS BUSINESS
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: kor on March 30, 2008, 12:30:03 PM
*Calls in the Internet Hate Machine*

^_^
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Romanar on March 30, 2008, 12:44:42 PM
There's nothing wrong with fun, silly stuff, but there IS a problem when there is a lack of good, serious stuff.  There were times when the most insightful question asked of an applicant for the Senate was "What is your favorite color", or something similar.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 30, 2008, 01:05:42 PM
There is a lack of quality in the questions in the senate for various reasons.  People were willing to answer the silly questions, and when we don't have tons of aplicants we tend to lax our standards.  Is there anything wrong with this?  Nah, because most people who applied to the senate have been posting here for a little bit at least. 

However blaming all of the regions problems on the Senate is something I won't hear.  September 01, 2007 is the last time any of you three ( I am barring pragmia here because he was always involved in the system) attempted of any real government reform.  If I remember correctly this even resulted in the Delegate getting a vote in the senate.

Quote
We tried that. That was the point of the Conservative Party of Taijitu, the Myro/I-S Delegate ticket, and the various Senators who proposed reform in the Senate, only to be shot down. The Senate and it's oligarchy latched onto power and wasn't willing to change. Frustrated at the Senate's own selfishness we left, and soon afterwards we formed the movement for a new order.

Besides the delegate getting more power what reform did you, PoD, or SD try to attempt?  Pragmia tried the voting reform, but that had nothing to do with selfishness, it had to do with both sides were split.  If you are going to make claims of that magnitude, please cite an example.  Also, I would hardly call it the Conservative Party when it's actions are this extream.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Prydania on March 30, 2008, 02:47:03 PM
Quote
We tried that. That was the point of the Conservative Party of Taijitu, the Myro/I-S Delegate ticket, and the various Senators who proposed reform in the Senate, only to be shot down. The Senate and it's oligarchy latched onto power and wasn't willing to change. Frustrated at the Senate's own selfishness we left, and soon afterwards we formed the movement for a new order.

Besides the delegate getting more power what reform did you, PoD, or SD try to attempt?  Pragmia tried the voting reform, but that had nothing to do with selfishness, it had to do with both sides were split.  If you are going to make claims of that magnitude, please cite an example.  Also, I would hardly call it the Conservative Party when it's actions are this extream.
You think our efforts were limited to ourselves? There were plenty of senators not officially affiliated with the Conservative Party of Taijitu, or any of our other groups, that attempted reform. We agreed with them, we applauded their efforts, and in some cases one or more of us gave them our blessing. B9 is the one that stands out the most in my mind at the moment.
He and many others attempted to reform the region by either giving more power to the delegate, barring SC justices and Cabinet members from sitting in the Senate, and voting reform.

Fact is, we all tried to fix the region from within in the system. The apathy, the overabundance of sloth, they all leached off the region via a Senate that was more interested in discussing irrelevancy then letting go of their death grip.
When you try your best to reform the system, and the system won't budge, you have two options; to wash your hands of it all and give up, or do something drastic to change things. We did both.
Fact is, the Senate and the mediocrity it allowed to "flourish" is just as guilty as SD, Prag, PoD, or myself. If you resist the march of change for that long you will be pushed aside.

As for the Conservative Party of Taijitu, well your complaining about the name highlights the tendency of those attached to the old order and their ability to debate the smallest detail while losing site of the bigger picture.

SD didn't name the CPT, I did. And I'm a Canadian. Which means my ideas concerning the ideology of "Conservativism" differs from American ideas. Canadian Conservative thought has its origins in the Loyalist/Tory movement of the late 1700's and early 1800's in Canada and Britain. The Tories believed that more in the King or Queen's hands would balance out the "mob rule" that the House of Commons was susceptible to fall into.
So in that sense, the name Conservative Party of Taijitu was an appropriate name. Of the many reforms we called for, we demanded more power for the Delegate, so he or she could balance out the mob rule of the Senate.
And when the mob is ruling through debates such as an applicant's favourite colour or the Senate's official drink, action needs to be taken. 
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Of Crazed on March 30, 2008, 03:21:29 PM
The thing is I didn't vote aginst or for some of these reforms because of apathy.  If I didn't vote for it is because I didn't agree with the damn thing.  In fact most senators who were too lazy to vote were kicked out.  The ones left obviously were the ones who cared.

Quote
Neutrality is hereby revoked. Invasions and/or raids, as well as "counter invasions", will take place at the discretion of the executive and military branches of government. A doctrine of pre-emptive strike may be adopted in order to deal with perceived and credible threats to our region, or our region's interests, anywhere in the world. The war against the Westwind regime will continue, and will do so, until TNP is under leadership which does not pose a threat.

I quote this because it is the only real given reason for the overthrowing of the old system.  How come no one tried to do this in the old system? 
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Eientei on March 30, 2008, 04:48:49 PM
Quote
A doctrine of pre-emptive strike may be adopted in order to deal with perceived and credible threats to our region, or our region's interests, anywhere in the world.

Now that you bring this bit of their platform up, wow.  I'm not going to object to this in NS, because really all I care about is that Taijitu survives and grows.  As a real world doctrine - not so much.  Maybe I'll write something about it in that academy forum that hasn't moved for two months.  Maybe we can even have some debate just for the sake of debate.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Sovereign Dixie on March 31, 2008, 04:08:31 AM
I am not saying that the senate was the end all be all problem with the region. Most of the discussion has been focused around that, as that seems to be what people were the most concerned with. There were problems with the Executive branch as well, and often times it was not pro active enough both at home, or abroad. There were problems that really, weren't any one's fault, things that just, were.

In the end, as I said before, to make the reforms we thought the region needed, would have taken a very long time, to say the least.
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: Durnia on April 02, 2008, 02:37:47 PM
So, err, is anything actually going to happen? Anything?
Title: Re: The Constitution of Taijitu
Post by: rk on April 14, 2008, 08:50:37 AM
I honestly wish it was more plain and simple,
I have question is this a constitution that maximizes the power of politicians or minimizes it.

Also Why not make the posiitons like citizen and resident a little more permanent then to be so easily removable, doesn't this open up the gates for some sirious power abuse.