Taijitu
Forum Meta => Executive Offices => May 2008 - Government of Taijitu => Government Archive => Archive => Office of the Delegate => Topic started by: Sovereign Dixie on January 21, 2007, 12:22:12 AM
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I'm really not in the way to make a long formal address about this, but, I know damn well I can't just up and ban someone without letting everyone know what's going on and why. So I'll level with you.
I had a meeting with The Ministers of Defense, Internal Affairs, and Regional Security, and it was decided that Baltija is an unstabilising factor in the region, for the reasons of personal attacks, including flaming and racism, generally rude and inappropriate behaviour, the impersonation of a Minister of Taijitu, and by his own insinuation of passing along information he obtains about our region to those who would potentially like to see harm come to it.
To those who don't know me, I'll go ahead and say this, I'm not a ban happy son of a bitch with an itch for chaos. I've only sanctioned one other banning in my NS career, and that was only after numerous complaints, and numerous warnings given to the offender. I only ban after every option has been exausted, and after giving more than ample and fair warning.
We have no offical process for this set up, as of yet. But, I'm going to take the actions that I feel are conscionable under the circumstances. The senate will be informed of all applicable evidence supporting this action. And Baltija will be given the right to appeal in our judicial system, which is currently being formed.
Thank you in advance for your support and understanding.
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Ok, I wasn't there at the time of banning. I wasn't consulted about it since I was not available at the time. However, as both a High Councillor and as the current Vice Delegate, I support Dixie's actions fully.
Those of you who know any of the history of Dixie before Taijitu will probably know how we felt about trigger happy banning and, since this has been building for a long time, I can assure you, we let a lot of things go that were potentially bannable by themselves.
This action, I am sure, was not easy for the Delegate to take and it's a shame it had to come so early in the region's development.
Edit: Spelling Error...
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1. The right of any citizen to speak freely shall not be abridged except where it violates the laws and rules of the external world and the forum.
2. Citizens shall have the right to seek redress from the Supreme Court if in their opinion executive authority has been unduly exercised against them.
1. Citizens shall be informed of their right to seek redress in the event that executive authority is exercised against them.
2. Citizenship may not be revoked without the due process of law.
3. The access of citizens to the region and the forum shall not be curtailed without cause from the Delegate nor shall the access of citizens be curtailed indefinitely without due process of law. The access of citizens to the Supreme Court shall under no circumstances be curtailed.
3. The Senate shall pass no bills of attainder.
4. Citizens shall not be prosecuted for crimes ex post facto.
I hope we haven't forgot to adhere to the emboldened portions of the Constitution. I have no problem banning someone if they deserve it, but first it must be proven that they do indeed deserve it. I also hope that he's been informed of his rights, and that he can still view the Supreme Court (we need Justices) so that he may make full use of them.
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Justices, we need Justices, not Judges...
But regardless, so long as evidence is indeed presented and the emboldened portions adhered to I can raise no objection to this, as if I would have a reason to.
Argh! The lack of a Court makes this much more complex than it ought to be! And then there's the fact that he hasn't, if I am not mistaken, maintained a resident nation in Taijitu, which would void his citizenship and the rights of the citizen along with them...
Though, for the sake of proving that we are a region ruled by law rather than I-say-so-ism some review of the matter might be in order, though my mind is for all matters already made up.
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My mistake, Prag. I'll go put it right.
There is already some sort of review in the Senate, though the Constitution actually doesn't say there should be...I suppose that's the best we can do if we don't have either a forum for the Supreme Court or the Justices to staff it.
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Ad hoc Senate tribunal, or wait for Court to exist?
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If SD feels the need to present evidence to the Senate, that's perfectly fine with me, even if it isn't Constitutionally mandated.
However, if he wishes to open a Review to contest the banning, then the Supreme Court will have to be organized. As long as he waits, the Supreme Court can langusih.
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I know that the constitution did not call for senate review, but I still felt it to be the right thing to do. Espeically since this is more or less based on not jut *an* event, but a *pattern* of events, I felt it was best.
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Well, a little foray into the Lex (they may have banned my school's IP, but not my home ;D) has revealed some rather interesting things. Of course, there is the expected accusations that we are a totalitarian state.
More importantly, he's gone and, in plain sight and public, disclosed IRC logs and screenshots and other such things.
If he wasn't guilty before, he is now.
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I corroborate Prag's story. I saw it with my own eyes!
Of course this begs the question (which I refrained from asking before, because I am a trusting person and presume innocence)...what will be done with his spot on the map? ;D
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Especially when you consider the fact that the logs in question have in them...
<14TCM> Bal...these logs better not be being posted elsewhere without the consent of everyone here.
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I want his spot on the map!
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Ultimately, it's for Oz to decide. I would suggest that he be removed and the spot be left open for some feature nation.
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nuke it :P
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I agree... nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
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Or perhaps a meteor falls out of the sky and hits Baltija, forming a gigantic crater that stops at the borders of Myroria and Eluvatar and magically doesn't effect anyone else.
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Heh, Baltija may be gone... but his godmodding is alive and well i see :P
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Ok...I just started a space programm...so let me demonstrate my spaceforce^^
But what have he said? I still don´t really got it....
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I can't say that I shall miss him.
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It would appear that Bal is merrily spreading crap about me on The Lex forum....any Lexies reading this...yes, I have seen what is being said, and you can all go to hell with your lies.
Even better...just leave NS. None of you....Cath, John, Bal....none of you belong around children. None of you deserve any right to have access to NS. If the only thing any of you can do with your time is make up lies about me, then I feel deeply sorry for you. Actually....no...no I don't! :P
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I can't say I'm surprised. Baltija has shown a bad attitude since he came here. His latest actions, showing IRC logs and claiming that Taijitu is run by tyrants, is just more of the same.
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"X is banned" threads back in the Lex, especially duing IP's second term and after, invariably turned into massive hatefests, with most slandering the banned person, a few voices reminding certain people of Banned Rights. Now, I don't want to see that happen in Taijitu.
We're more mature than that.
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invariably turned into massive hatefests, with most slandering the banned person
I completely agree with you.
BALTIJA SLEPT WITH HIS MOM!
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Well for one, his NS nation is "Greater Baltija" so technically he is a citizen.
And as a citizen, how can he appeal when his IP is banned from accessing the forums, much less the Court forum to make such an appeal if he so desired?
I support my friend, in and out of RP, in this matter. I personally have issues surrounding his banning and more in particular with Amy's probable involvement, she has turned me away from the fun of the Games forum (the beginning of where everything started, imo).
I know Baltija, or even myself, are not generally well-liked as we are not the most diplomatic of people, but I strongly feel that there was a lot of personal bias involved especially from Amy's end and power thumping (I've been threaten by her twice, via PM, for posting in the Games froum, maintaining my number 1 poster slot). Even though I am not a senator, (yet hopefully), I would like to see the review process concerning his banishment.
EDIT: He also informed me if possible, that I am given his land if I wanted it. I would hope to think that before anyone touches his land, that he at least been given time, if so desired, to make his appeal. That if and when he does, the land remains his pending the final decision of the court.
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I would hope that if he telegrammed the Delegate because he is the authority (or a Judge if we have one?) then he could set the wheels of motion in place for a review. Then Eluvatar could play around with his mask so he could see the Court forums.
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The last time I talked to him, he wasnt even aware he COULD appeal his banning, much less even try to. As a citizen, I believe he should have been informed of his options via TG once banished. This might be something that should be included in the banning procedures, should in case another citizen become banned at a later date.
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Baltija was being discussed and watched by the Founders since his stunt many days ago that involved tricking a new member of the region into thinking he was in charge of the army.
Baltija has also repeatedly copied things from this forum and taken them over to The Lexicon's forum, as well as IRC logs, *after* he was told that in order to copy them, he would need permission from those who had been involved in the conversations. He ignored this.
If Baltija wishes to appeal his banning, he can. But I would like to remind everyone of the mountain of evidence against him, including screenshots of him copying info over to The Lex. If he really wanted to be apart of this region, copying information is the last thing he would have done.
If anyone else is found to be copying information at all or posting IRC logs without the permission of those involved in them, action will be taken about them. Baltija's banning was not based on the events of one evening, rather a list of events for which he was being watched and discussed long before this incident.
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I agree with Bustos that Baltija should be informed of his right to appeal, though frankly, I think his problems go beyond his somewhat abrasive manner.
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Much as Baltija irks me... I will have to agree. If he indeed did maintain the nation of Greater Baltija within Taijitu then he is indeed a citizen. Damning as the evidence against him may be at this point, he is entitled to a trial and to be informed of his rights. This of course is all sloppy, as this was an event which occurred a bit earlier than it ought to have (what with no court existing yet), but the rights enumerated within the Constitution must be uphold, lest we slide from the rule of law into that say-so-ism we've so reviled previously.
Me thinks that I must also consider drawing up better procedures for this in the future...
So if he has not been informed of his rights, then I shall have to ask that he is, and that some kind of court be drawn together to rule on this matter.
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I do not actually see how Balitija could bring himself to appeal.
As a loyal and true Lexiconian he must believe that, whatever the laws and constitution of the region, it remains in essence the playground of the founder, and that whatever the founder does is right.
Therefore, should he be tempted to appeal, he would be forced to overrule himself.
It's a bugger, but there you go. :P
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Regardless, he should be informed. Doing so would certainly demonstrate our commitment to a more fair and just region.
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I'll PM him on the Lex forums if you like.
I also suggest we get the courts set up as quickly as possible.
Though, just to play devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure that Baltija signed the Constitution. As such, he would be aware of his rights, assuming he read the thing.
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He didnt sign it.
Linky (http://wiki.taijitu.org/index.php?title=The_Constitution_of_Taijitu)
I doubt he will even ask for an appeal, I would just like to see all the evidence that was laid out against him with my own eyes. The duping of the n00bs that he was in charge of the army, while extremely funny to me (I actually saw this occur, so no proof is needed) but, I can understand your point of veiw in terms that it was not the right thing to do.
As I said, I have issues surrounding the ban. If the evidence can be laid out before me, I, too, then will be force to accept the ban on a personal level. I am not asking this for my approval, but for my own peace of mind that a friend wasn't screwed over for personal vengence.
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Bustos, it is being presented to the Senate, am I correct in thinking you're in the middle of a vote? I think you'll be able to see it after you're inducted.
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So unless I become a member of the senate I wont be able to see the proof?
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Well, if you've still got access to the Lexicon forums you can go and see some of the newest proof for yourself, the IRC logs he's gone and blatantly posted in the discussion chamber. Had he not done that, he might have had some room in which to manuever. But he did.
Has he been notified of the appeal right yet?
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A small point but one that is relevant.....why is it that only senators are allowed to see this evidence or those with access to the lexicon....surely this evidence should be made totally public.....having seen the evidence I can't see why it isn't more publicly available.....
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My thoughts exactly.
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I've been in too many regions where evidence for bannings has been kept secret apart from to some elite members.....I kinda hoped Taijitu would be different.....
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I agree with ^. The evidence should be open to everyone, unless there is a legitimate reason otherwise.
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Personally, I agree with ^ and ^^. However, I have two reservations. One deals with semantics, one with the Constitution.
First, the Senate is by no means an elite body. Everyone has the right to apply, and just about everyone makes it in.
Second, there is no law or Constitutional provision that says that evidence must be presented. Ordinarily, if I read the Constitution aright, once a citizen review has ceased, the Supreme Court divulges the court records to the public. These court records would contain the evidence that had been presented. However, we have no court at the moment (something our Delegate should rectify when he gets the time), and this is a sort of...interim procedure.
Besides, there hasn't been much proof actually offered up yet, due to absences, vacations, broken legs etc.
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@G-C.....Firstly.....I was refering to other regions regarding elitism....I do appreciate(In both senses of the word) the openness of the Taijitu Senate to new members...
Secondly....I think maybe this is something that should be amended in the constitution....
It's just that it feels a bit like.....to those not in the senate(and there will always be people who don't want that kind of involvement) or in the court system that information is somehow being withheld from them....
And I'd like to think that we as taijituans(sic) can afford be a little bit more openwhen it comes to this kind of thing in the future.....
I'm not suggesting that there is an elite by any means.....I'm sorry if that was the impression my post gave.....
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The main problem with that is, the Senate is the decision making body. Therefore, to give them power, they need the responsibilities to deal with something like this. An option is to have a two tier system. Evidence is presented to the senate, then, seven days later revealed openly. Though, that's just an idea.
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It would still be their responsibility to deal with the issue in a legislative way, just that everyone else knows what they are deliberating over. Where is the issue there? How is a senate which cannot be lobbied claim to be democratic?
How can the constitutional principles of 'combat[ting] tyranny' and 'promot[ing] democracy' be reconciled with the de facto reality of banning without detailed justification and a legislative body routinely using closed rather than open processes?
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Short answer; it cannot.
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As I've said before, I feel one of the biggest problems in this case is that this happened too early, before we had any chance to create any set procedures for what to do exactly in this case. Though, from a Constitutional point of view, what should have happened is that Baltija should have been notified that he was banned, given reason, and informed of his right to appeal to the Court. If he were to then take that right, a trial would be opened wherein evidence would be presented, argued before, Justices, who would then make the final decision. As to an outright ban on citizens, that actually cannot take place, or at least cannot in the future when the Supreme Court is created, as that would restrict access to the Courts before that citizenship had been removed by due process by the verdict of the court.
With any luck, I will be able to dabble in better procedures for this in the future (and @Daimaien it does not have to require a Constitutional Amendment; simple legislation would suffice).
Messy, messy, messy...
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So that make the ban unconstitutional and an abuse of power?
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Well, the ban itself is not unconstitutional outright. If a court existed, it would be, as access to the Court would have then been restricted while citizenship was still held. But as no Court exists, access to it cannot really be restricted. And it is perfectly in the right of the Delegate to restrict a members access to everything but the Court, so long as such a restriction is not made indefinite without due process of law, and so long as an actual charge is brought. Just to whom those charges ought to be brought to is as of yet unclear (right now they've been brought to the Senate in camera), and I intend to legislate to resolve the matter. Personally I would interpret due process as meaning that the individual in question was notified and given the chance to appeal and if they chose too, were given a fair hearing by the Court, while if they refused it the matter would be done there and then. So, if Baltija has not been informed of his right to seek redress, then that is unconstitutional and needs to attended to immediately. Should he choose the option though we immediately run into the problem of there being no Court yet.
So in short, he needs to be informed and a Court formed to which he has access (unless he refuses his right to seek redress, in which case his citizenship can then be revoked and his access cut off completely).
I do find myself that the reasons for the ban are a bit iffy, even if I did not appreciate most of his behavior. But even if he gets of on the first banning, he then will have to immediately stand trial for posting all of those IRC logs across the Lex, and he's in quite a bit of hot water there. But then again he still ought to be able to have a trial if he chooses to do so.
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I agree Prag., and you were right, it was too soon.
It will just take a while untill things are sorted out. I know we're sick of hearing that under different circumstances, but it shall happen soon. If he (Balt) so chooses, he will also have a trial. I have seen only part of the evidence, and, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I was one of the few finding him funny. The things I have seen have lead me to support the banning. But that's not the issue. We need to follow the rules, and, where there's yet no rule, we need to follow common-sense, however hard that be to define. When the Judicial will be in place, it will deal with this as a priority. Untill then, if he misses being here, he has himself to blame.
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He's been informed of his rights (by PM on the Lex forums, by me), and so far has not made use of them.
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Can we go right back to the banning?
The reasons given for his ejection by Delegate Sovereign Dixie are:
- #"[P]ersonal attacks, including flaming and racism",
- #"[G]enerally rude and inappropriate behaviour",
- #"[T]he impersonation of a Minister of Taijitu",
- #"[H]is own insinuation of passing along information he obtains about our region to those who would potentially like to see harm come to it"
These are inadequate reasons.
Personal attacks and being generally rude are subjective judgements about another person's use of their freedom of speech. If the libertarian and democratic trumpetings of the founders of Taijitu are to be taken seriously, then arbitrary bans for using your freedom of speech are something which need to cease. The replacement of Baltija's avatar with the words "Unfortunately, not mature enough to remain here..." are also highly damaging to Taijitu - you apparently must conform to the Founders' arbitrary definition of mature in order to remain a citizen.
The impersonation of a minister was an issue which was easy to rectify, and a dressing down of Baltija was needed. This action was wrong. It was also a joke - found by many (including Taijituan ministers) to be funny. There is no law against it, and the level of damage to Taijitu caused by this was infinitesimal.
The passing of IRC logs and screenshots to the Lexicon are an interesting reason. First of all, there is again no Taijituan law against this. The senate needs to decide at some point if IRC conversations should come under the law, and perhaps vice versa, since there is a rule in IRC about not publishing logs without the permission of all involved.
The screenshots are particularly interesting. It is my suspiscion that the reason this is such an issue is that it is now possible for Taijituans to see that their Delegate did not give a reason for his banning to Baltija, in breach (according to Pragmia) of the constitution. It appears to me that The Lexicon has neither the ability nor the inclination to "harm" Taijitu, and in any case the information passed on was open source, not privileged, sensitive or legal (court/senate proceedings) in nature.
I do not make these points to defend Baltija's actions. I like the guy but had to act on him myself as an Admin in The Lex. What I am trying to point out is basically what is stated in my signature quote. You can use the youth of the region as much as you like as a defence, but it seems to me that the region has, in its very first days, betrayed the reason it was created.
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Wow, that was fuckin awesome! Thank you for putting into words I could not.
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Edit....for some reason I was having trouble posting. Here was what I wanted to say.
The reasons given for his ejection by Delegate Sovereign Dixie are:
- #"[P]ersonal attacks, including flaming and racism",
- #"[G]enerally rude and inappropriate behaviour",
- #"[T]he impersonation of a Minister of Taijitu",
- #"[H]is own insinuation of passing along information he obtains about our region to those who would potentially like to see harm come to it"
Yes. Those are the reasons.
Personal attacks and being generally rude are subjective judgements about another person's use of their freedom of speech. If the libertarian and democratic trumpetings of the founders of Taijitu are to be taken seriously, then arbitrary bans for using your freedom of speech are something which need to cease. The replacement of Baltija's avatar with the words "Unfortunately, not mature enough to remain here..." are also highly damaging to Taijitu - you apparently must conform to the Founders' arbitrary definition of mature in order to remain a citizen.
So you are saying that it is okay for Baltija to insult me? In that case....what is to stop everyone on the forum from insulting everyone else? Why not turn Taijitu into one big insult forum where you can say whatever you want about anyone without being punished for it? No. Insulting someone results in being asked to stop. If it continues, then a warning. This was combined with the other reasons Baltija was banned.
The impersonation of a minister was an issue which was easy to rectify, and a dressing down of Baltija was needed. This action was wrong. It was also a joke - found by many (including Taijituan ministers) to be funny. There is no law against it, and the level of damage to Taijitu caused by this was infinitesimal.
Funny? I'm sooooo glad everyone found this sooooo funny. How about threatening regional security? Baltija knew he was wrong in doing what he did....but he did it anyway....a classic example of how unremorseful he is.
The passing of IRC logs and screenshots to the Lexicon are an interesting reason. First of all, there is again no Taijituan law against this. The senate needs to decide at some point if IRC conversations should come under the law, and perhaps vice versa, since there is a rule in IRC about not publishing logs without the permission of all involved.
Remember back in The Lex when OT was banned for passing a post from the Senate about him proposing that we end the war that was between us at the time? Passing information from one forum to another has always been against the rules of any forum. Baltija again knew what he was doing. He is under Cath and John's thumb and was most probably only here in the first place to gather information to pass to them.
[23:26] <TCM> Bal...these logs better not be being posted elsewhere without the consent of everyone here.
[23:27] <Eluvatar> verily
[23:28] <Baltija> Huh?
[23:28] <Eluvatar> well, everyone talking anyways
[23:28] <Eluvatar> That's the rule with IRC logs actually--
[23:28] <Eluvatar> you don't share them unless everyone who was involved agrees to allow you to.
[23:28] <Eluvatar> It's a very frequently broken rule, but it is a rule.
[23:28] <Eluvatar> When it is broken and people notice, then the person who breaks it does get lots of people annoyed at them.
[23:29] <Eluvatar> Generally speaking.
[23:29] <Baltija> Yes, a very frequently broken one.
[23:29] <Baltija> Well, technically I won't be copying/pasting logs but...... Where's another way around ;)
[23:30] <TCM> Bal...if we find out these logs have been copied without our permission, you will be banned from the channel.
[23:30] <Myroria> There's another way around
[23:30] <Eluvatar> You can tell people what your impression of the conversation was.
[23:30] <Myroria> That's always annoyed me, and I just thought I'd tell you.
[23:31] <Baltija> I said, there's another way around to show logs without copying/pasting them
[23:31] <Eluvatar> Although if this was a fully private conversation, we would get annoyed at you for that ;)
[23:31] <Baltija> ;)
[23:31] <Baltija> Damn, it sounds so sweet coming from you!
[23:31] <Eluvatar> You mean transferring the actual logfile?
[23:31] <Eluvatar> Same thing.
[23:31] <Eluvatar> 0_o
[23:31] <Eluvatar> o_0
[23:31] <Baltija> Well, I haven't thought about that
[23:32] <Eluvatar> Sending the actual logfile is exactly the same thing as CnPing the log
[23:32] <Eluvatar> this is not a literal rule, this is a general rule.
[23:32] <Eluvatar> You do not share logs in any way shape or form without consent.
[23:32] <Baltija> Sure, whatever you say
See the bolded lines. Baltija knew exactly what he was doing and was warned several times about not posting IRC logs without the permission of everyone involved. You can see that he was clearly planning on doing so, and was also being very stupid about it.
The screenshots are particularly interesting. It is my suspiscion that the reason this is such an issue is that it is now possible for Taijituans to see that their Delegate did not give a reason for his banning to Baltija, in breach (according to Pragmia) of the constitution. It appears to me that The Lexicon has neither the ability nor the inclination to "harm" Taijitu, and in any case the information passed on was open source, not privileged, sensitive or legal (court/senate proceedings) in nature.
SDixie had every reason to ban Baltija.
The Lexicon does have the inclination to harm Taijitu. I have received threats from Cath (not uncommon coming from her though) and amazing enough from Rob, about recruiting. We have also had a nation move into the region spamming our RMB claiming that Taijitu is made up of only puppets...clearing a Lex stunt. There is also a UN nation inside the region that I have reason to believe is controlled by IP or one of the other Founders of The Lex. FL, Cath and IP dislike Taijitu's success. They have made this clear. So yes, they do have reason to want to harm the region.
I do not make these points to defend Baltija's actions. I like the guy but had to act on him myself as an Admin in The Lex. What I am trying to point out is basically what is stated in my signature quote. You can use the youth of the region as much as you like as a defence, but it seems to me that the region has, in its very first days, betrayed the reason it was created.
Baltija's banning was for the good of the region. He has repeatedly insulted people, done what he was told not to do, and gone out of his way to get himself banned. Baltija's banning has been explained and justified. Yet certain people will not let it rest, and then claim that the banning was not good for the region. It was...it is the fact that those people will not let it be that it isn't good for the region.
Baltija is gone. He has been informed of his right to appeal and has not done so yet....you know why? Because he knows that it was right that he was banned. He practically went out of his way to get himself banned and therefore most probably won't appeal it. Baltija probably did not even want to be here in the first place. Why did he behave in the manner that he did (constantly....right from the moment he got here) if he actually wanted to be here?
If anyone has any further problems regarding this banning, either PM me (as I supported and still do support Baltija's banning), or PM SDixie.
Next time someone wants to moan about this banning not being good for the region...think twice before posting saying so, as it is the constant moaning of those people that are keeping this thing alive.
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Though mind you, all of that reason means nothing unless Baltija actually decides to appeal.
Though, it raises the interesting question of just how much of the law we must explicitly state. Now, I'd have thunk that releasing IRC logs and impersonating government officials was just universally considered poor behavior, and that specifically stating it to be out of the question shouldn't be necessary. But stating it explicitly does makes things nice and clean legally. The only problem is, I worry it opens the door to any creative troublemaker who might worm his way through many a loophole.
Me thinks there is yet more legislation for me to write now...
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My 2 cents: Freedom of speech is great, but flaming and personal attacks will get you banned at any forum I've ever been to. The only question is, did Baltija cross the line.
As for the impersonation, I didn't find it at all funny. I don't know about regional security, but it certainly could have scared a newcomer away from the army, or even the region.
Frankly, I was surprised that Balt came here in the first place, and at times, it seemed like he was TRYING to sow dissent. Just my impression.
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Cartwrightia, we gave him at least two warnings that I know of. I'm not awake enough to argue this right now so I won't even try... But I do still think that we did give him enough opportunity to stop his behaviour. If he wants a court appeal, I say we give him one.
The only point I will ask though is, what minister found the impersonation funny?
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Let me repeat; he's been informed of his rights. If he doesn't decide to act on them, then nothing we say here will reverse anything.
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ivwe asked him about it on MSN he said he can live without taijitu, i guess he doesnt really care
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Thanx TCM....for providing both the evidence involved(WooT!! for transparency) and for a reasoned argument as to why the banning occurred....
I hereby withdraw all previous comments regarding this incident....
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Oh, btw, Balt posted the ressource system which we use in the Lex...dunno who invented it, but I just read it now.
Edit: Spelling error :-[
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It was originally invented in the Lex, and moved to Taijitu when its creators and developers moved here.
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SDixie had every reason to ban Baltija.
I think he did, Amy. You have missed the point here - it is the way in which the banning was done which sends out a very bad message, one contrary to what Taijitu seems/seemed to stand for. Your response to questioning also does this:
If anyone has any further problems regarding this banning, either PM me (as I supported and still do support Baltija's banning), or PM SDixie.
Next time someone wants to moan about this banning not being good for the region...think twice before posting saying so, as it is the constant moaning of those people that are keeping this thing alive.
You are trying to silence a debate which has been posted in on every day since the banning occurred, pushing a major issue of founder activity and arbitrary use of power into the private realm, at the same time as demanding that it no longer be posted about. It is a testament to the fact that most people in this region do believe in freedom of speech and open debate that people have ignored your anti-democratic demands.
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Again, the point is completely moot. Let me reiterate; Baltija has been informed of his rights, by OT and myself. He doesn't seem to want to make use of them, and seems to believe he is well shot of us.
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You are trying to silence a debate which has been posted in on every day since the banning occurred, pushing a major issue of founder activity and arbitrary use of power into the private realm, at the same time as demanding that it no longer be posted about. It is a testament to the fact that most people in this region do believe in freedom of speech and open debate that people have ignored your anti-democratic demands.
You seem to be msunderstanding me Cart. I am not trying to silence the issue. I am merely asking that those people who keep on moaning that the banning was not good for the region quit saying so as it is that moaning that isn't good. If anyone has further questions or comments then they are free to post them.
Thanks for that G-C. You are right. Bal has been informed of his rights and does not wish to use them....doesn't that prove something?
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Hey a good idea is a good idea. ;)
As I said, I doubt he'd appeal to the ban. At least I have a better understanding about the events surrounding the ban. Thank you for your understanding and patience with me.
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As I have another 6 days of my theoretical hiatus (broken due to the Delegate Elections irregularities) I'm not going to state my full opinion here. Basically, I believe both sides here bear significant points, but the way I see it, we need to get some laws and a court set up ASAP before we begin actually making sure everything follows the rules-- I think it is clear that perhaps the first thing our new Delegate will do is appoint justices.
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Sounds like a good idea Elu :)
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Let me make one thing absolutely crystal clear. This action was not a Founder action. It was done as a Government action. I know that they're the same group for the time being. But, it's important to remember that Dixie was Delegate at the time.
And, G-C is correct.
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Just a thought. This thread seems to have just about covered its ground. The banning has been announced, the reasons gone over, and Baltija's right of appeal has been stressed. I cannot see much reason for the thread to remain open after five pages.
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Where does this culture of closing down dicussion threads come from? I cannot see much reason for closing down a thread which has ignited so much discussion, other than more cynical reasons than I would like to entertain.
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It can remain open all you like, however, it has no real purpose any longer.
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I do not want this thread closed-- I don't like threads being closed in principle. But asking us all to move on unless something else happens is OK.
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Amy's right, I'd been discussing this with the Ministers before I ever banned him. Baltija, frankly, is more trouble than he's worth, he goes out of his way to start shit. Frankly, I would have been perfectly happy had he just kept his ass in the Lex and continued making trouble and booting people at random from IRC as he had been.
However, I will not put up with such bullshit here. There were a few people (I won't name names) who wanted me to ban him the minute he came to Taijitu. But, I wanted to give him a clean slate. And within a week, he had fucked it up. And as far as I know, he *was* informed of his right to appeal. He is more than welcome to, and we'll give him whatever processes are granted in the constitution.
But don't treat this or imply that this is OMGBANNINGZ... 'cause it's not. It was getting rid of a problem and a pain in the ass to a lot of people.
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When I first registered I had no idea who Baltija was....all I knew was that he seemed to be making deliberately provocative argumentative and quite offensive posts....and I for one am glad that something to deal with the situation.....
The only problem I had with the results was the apparent lack of transparency....somethng that has been dealt with fully.....
Thank you Soverign Dixie and TCM.....
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sucks I cant put time into making a paper with any regularity, but I would love to get some peoples views on these things. I think people talking about bannings shoudnt be in PM it should be open, and If any... ANY AT ALL of the administrators try and say we should stop talking about it in a public fation then they are a dictatoral region and should stop hiding behind it.
I think Balt got banned for good reasons and shouls have been, I also think that the banning and evidence should be open to everyone not just a select few
I know Im not exactly a big member any mroe as I have the activity of well a dead rat, but If my opinion means anything, ever. This thread should not be closes at all. Talking and presenting evidence of bannings openly is what shows your region isnt just a founder play ground
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Your opinion very much counts Ranholn, the thing is that while it would be *nice* probably to post evidence on the forum at large, sometimes, that' just not practical. But, showing it in private to the Senate, is not only practical, but an essential part of our checks and balances process. Something, I might add, which is not and has not been allowed in the "founder playground" regions.
No one here said that this thread should be closed, and no one said that this should not be discussed, at least not that I've seen. All that was said was that this long after the banning, it really doesn't serve a purpose. I personally agree with that, but I'm not going to tell people what they can and cannot talk about.
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I thank you for not naming me before Merlin but I stand for what I have said and that I got somewhat out of line in the beginning with trying to get Baltija banned. I appologize to all admins for the way I behaved during that time.
And though I do respect Baltija as a human being I just can't and won't accept behaviour or views like those he displayed both here and in the Lex. Even though I would fight to let anyone have any view for themselves I won't let anything that aggressive, ignorant or condecending get a chance to spread, and I won't let anyone be preyed upon by anyone who are only trying to get a temporary ego-boost.