Baltija has been banned

[Gulliver]

As I've said before, I feel one of the biggest problems in this case is that this  happened too early, before we had any chance to create any set procedures for what to do exactly in this case. Though, from a Constitutional point of view, what should have happened is that Baltija should have been notified that he was banned, given reason, and informed of his right to appeal to the Court. If he were to then take that right, a trial would be opened wherein evidence would be presented, argued before, Justices, who would then make the final decision. As to an outright ban on citizens, that actually cannot take place, or at least cannot in the future when the Supreme Court is created, as that would restrict access to the Courts before that citizenship had been removed by due process by the verdict of the court.

With any luck, I will be able to dabble in better procedures for this in the future (and @Daimaien it does not have to require a Constitutional Amendment; simple legislation would suffice).

Messy, messy, messy...

[Bustos]

So that make the ban unconstitutional and an abuse of power?

[Gulliver]

Well, the ban itself is not unconstitutional outright. If a court existed, it would be, as access to the Court would have then been restricted while citizenship was still held. But as no Court exists, access to it cannot really be restricted. And it is perfectly in the right of the Delegate to restrict a members access to everything but the Court, so long as such a restriction is not made indefinite without due process of law, and so long as an actual charge is brought. Just to whom those charges ought to be brought to is as of yet unclear (right now they've been brought to the Senate in camera), and I intend to legislate to resolve the matter. Personally I would interpret due process as meaning that the individual in question was notified and given the chance to appeal and if they chose too, were given a fair hearing by the Court, while if they refused it the matter would be done there and then. So, if Baltija has not been informed of his right to seek redress, then that is unconstitutional and needs to attended to immediately. Should he choose the option though we immediately run into the problem of there being no Court yet.

So in short, he needs to be informed and a Court formed to which he has access (unless he refuses his right to seek redress, in which case his citizenship can then be revoked and his access cut off completely).

I do find myself that the reasons for the ban are a bit iffy, even if I did not appreciate most of his behavior. But even if he gets of on the first banning, he then will have to immediately stand trial for posting all of those IRC logs across the Lex, and he's in quite a bit of hot water there. But then again he still ought to be able to have a trial if he chooses to do so.

[PoD Gunner]

I agree Prag., and you were right, it was too soon.
It will just take a while untill things are sorted out. I know we're sick of hearing that under different circumstances, but it shall happen soon. If he (Balt) so chooses, he will also have a trial. I have seen only part of the evidence, and, as I have mentioned elsewhere, I was one of the few finding him funny. The things I have seen have lead me to support the banning. But that's not the issue. We need to follow the rules, and, where there's yet no rule, we need to follow common-sense, however hard that be to define. When the Judicial will be in place, it will deal with this as a priority. Untill then, if he misses being here, he has himself to blame.

[Zimmerwald]

He's been informed of his rights (by PM on the Lex forums, by me), and so far has not made use of them.

[Cartwrightia]

Can we go right back to the banning?

The reasons given for his ejection by Delegate Sovereign Dixie are:

• #"[P]ersonal attacks, including flaming and racism",
• #"[G]enerally rude and inappropriate behaviour",
• #"[T]he impersonation of a Minister of Taijitu",
• #"[H]is own insinuation of passing along information he obtains about our region to those who would potentially like to see harm come to it"

These are inadequate reasons. 

Personal attacks and being generally rude are subjective judgements about another person's use of their freedom of speech.  If the libertarian and democratic trumpetings of the founders of Taijitu are to be taken seriously, then arbitrary bans for using your freedom of speech are something which need to cease.  The replacement of Baltija's avatar with the words "Unfortunately, not mature enough to remain here..." are also highly damaging to Taijitu - you apparently must conform to the Founders' arbitrary definition of mature in order to remain a citizen.

The impersonation of a minister was an issue which was easy to rectify, and a dressing down of Baltija was needed.  This action was wrong.  It was also a joke - found by many (including Taijituan ministers) to be funny.  There is no law against it, and the level of damage to Taijitu caused by this was infinitesimal.

The passing of IRC logs and screenshots to the Lexicon are an interesting reason.  First of all, there is again no Taijituan law against this.  The senate needs to decide at some point if IRC conversations should come under the law, and perhaps vice versa, since there is a rule in IRC about not publishing logs without the permission of all involved.

The screenshots are particularly interesting.  It is my suspiscion that the reason this is such an issue is that it is now possible for Taijituans to see that their Delegate did not give a reason for his banning to Baltija, in breach (according to Pragmia) of the constitution.  It appears to me that The Lexicon has neither the ability nor the inclination to "harm" Taijitu, and in any case the information passed on was open source, not privileged, sensitive or legal (court/senate proceedings) in nature.

I do not make these points to defend Baltija's actions.  I like the guy but had to act on him myself as an Admin in The Lex.  What I am trying to point out is basically what is stated in my signature quote.  You can use the youth of the region as much as you like as a defence, but it seems to me that the region has, in its very first days, betrayed the reason it was created.

[Bustos]

Wow, that was fuckin awesome!  Thank you for putting into words I could not.

[Amy]

Edit....for some reason I was having trouble posting. Here was what I wanted to say.

The reasons given for his ejection by Delegate Sovereign Dixie are:

• #"[P]ersonal attacks, including flaming and racism",
• #"[G]enerally rude and inappropriate behaviour",
• #"[T]he impersonation of a Minister of Taijitu",
• #"[H]is own insinuation of passing along information he obtains about our region to those who would potentially like to see harm come to it"

Yes. Those are the reasons.

Personal attacks and being generally rude are subjective judgements about another person's use of their freedom of speech.  If the libertarian and democratic trumpetings of the founders of Taijitu are to be taken seriously, then arbitrary bans for using your freedom of speech are something which need to cease.  The replacement of Baltija's avatar with the words "Unfortunately, not mature enough to remain here..." are also highly damaging to Taijitu - you apparently must conform to the Founders' arbitrary definition of mature in order to remain a citizen.

So you are saying that it is okay for Baltija to insult me? In that case....what is to stop everyone on the forum from insulting everyone else? Why not turn Taijitu into one big insult forum where you can say whatever you want about anyone without being punished for it? No. Insulting someone results in being asked to stop. If it continues, then a warning. This was combined with the other reasons Baltija was banned.

The impersonation of a minister was an issue which was easy to rectify, and a dressing down of Baltija was needed.  This action was wrong.  It was also a joke - found by many (including Taijituan ministers) to be funny.  There is no law against it, and the level of damage to Taijitu caused by this was infinitesimal.

Funny? I'm sooooo glad everyone found this sooooo funny. How about threatening regional security? Baltija knew he was wrong in doing what he did....but he did it anyway....a classic example of how unremorseful he is.

The passing of IRC logs and screenshots to the Lexicon are an interesting reason.  First of all, there is again no Taijituan law against this.  The senate needs to decide at some point if IRC conversations should come under the law, and perhaps vice versa, since there is a rule in IRC about not publishing logs without the permission of all involved.

Remember back in The Lex when OT was banned for passing a post from the Senate about him proposing that we end the war that was between us at the time? Passing information from one forum to another has always been against the rules of any forum. Baltija again knew what he was doing. He is under Cath and John's thumb and was most probably only here in the first place to gather information to pass to them.

[23:26] <TCM> Bal...these logs better not be being posted elsewhere without the consent of everyone here.
[23:27] <Eluvatar> verily
[23:28] <Baltija> Huh?
[23:28] <Eluvatar> well, everyone talking anyways
[23:28] <Eluvatar> That's the rule with IRC logs actually--
[23:28] <Eluvatar> you don't share them unless everyone who was involved agrees to allow you to.
[23:28] <Eluvatar> It's a very frequently broken rule, but it is a rule.
[23:28] <Eluvatar> When it is broken and people notice, then the person who breaks it does get lots of people annoyed at them.
[23:29] <Eluvatar> Generally speaking.
[23:29] <Baltija> Yes, a very frequently broken one.
[23:29] <Baltija> Well, technically I won't be copying/pasting logs but...... Where's another way around
[23:30] <TCM> Bal...if we find out these logs have been copied without our permission, you will be banned from the channel.
[23:30] <Myroria> There's another way around
[23:30] <Eluvatar> You can tell people what your impression of the conversation was.
[23:30] <Myroria> That's always annoyed me, and I just thought I'd tell you.
[23:31] <Baltija> I said, there's another way around to show logs without copying/pasting them
[23:31] <Eluvatar> Although if this was a fully private conversation, we would get annoyed at you for that
[23:31] <Baltija>
[23:31] <Baltija> Damn, it sounds so sweet coming from you!
[23:31] <Eluvatar> You mean transferring the actual logfile?
[23:31] <Eluvatar> Same thing.
[23:31] <Eluvatar> 0_o
[23:31] <Eluvatar> o_0
[23:31] <Baltija> Well, I haven't thought about that
[23:32] <Eluvatar> Sending the actual logfile is exactly the same thing as CnPing the log
[23:32] <Eluvatar> this is not a literal rule, this is a general rule.
[23:32] <Eluvatar> You do not share logs in any way shape or form without consent.
[23:32] <Baltija> Sure, whatever you say

See the bolded lines. Baltija knew exactly what he was doing and was warned several times about not posting IRC logs without the permission of everyone involved. You can see that he was clearly planning on doing so, and was also being very stupid about it.

The screenshots are particularly interesting.  It is my suspiscion that the reason this is such an issue is that it is now possible for Taijituans to see that their Delegate did not give a reason for his banning to Baltija, in breach (according to Pragmia) of the constitution.  It appears to me that The Lexicon has neither the ability nor the inclination to "harm" Taijitu, and in any case the information passed on was open source, not privileged, sensitive or legal (court/senate proceedings) in nature.

SDixie had every reason to ban Baltija.

The Lexicon does have the inclination to harm Taijitu. I have received threats from Cath (not uncommon coming from her though) and amazing enough from Rob, about recruiting. We have also had a nation move into the region spamming our RMB claiming that Taijitu is made up of only puppets...clearing a Lex stunt. There is also a UN nation inside the region that I have reason to believe is controlled by IP or one of the other Founders of The Lex. FL, Cath and IP dislike Taijitu's success. They have made this clear. So yes, they do have reason to want to harm the region.

I do not make these points to defend Baltija's actions.  I like the guy but had to act on him myself as an Admin in The Lex.  What I am trying to point out is basically what is stated in my signature quote.  You can use the youth of the region as much as you like as a defence, but it seems to me that the region has, in its very first days, betrayed the reason it was created.

Baltija's banning was for the good of the region. He has repeatedly insulted people, done what he was told not to do, and gone out of his way to get himself banned. Baltija's banning has been explained and justified. Yet certain people will not let it rest, and then claim that the banning was not good for the region. It was...it is the fact that those people will not let it be that it isn't good for the region.

Baltija is gone. He has been informed of his right to appeal and has not done so yet....you know why? Because he knows that it was right that he was banned. He practically went out of his way to get himself banned and therefore most probably won't appeal it. Baltija probably did not even want to be here in the first place. Why did he behave in the manner that he did (constantly....right from the moment he got here) if he actually wanted to be here?

If anyone has any further problems regarding this banning, either PM me (as I supported and still do support Baltija's banning), or PM SDixie.

Next time someone wants to moan about this banning not being good for the region...think twice before posting saying so, as it is the constant moaning of those people that are keeping this thing alive.

[Gulliver]

Though mind you, all of that reason means nothing unless Baltija actually decides to appeal.

Though, it raises the interesting question of just how much of the law we must explicitly state. Now, I'd have thunk that releasing IRC logs and impersonating government officials was just universally considered poor behavior, and that specifically stating it to be out of the question shouldn't be necessary. But stating it explicitly does makes things nice and clean legally. The only problem is, I worry it opens the door to any creative troublemaker who might worm his way through many a loophole.

Me thinks there is yet more legislation for me to write now...

[Romanar]

My 2 cents:  Freedom of speech is great, but flaming and personal attacks will get you banned at any forum I've ever been to.  The only question is, did Baltija cross the line.

As for the impersonation, I didn't find it at all funny.  I don't know about regional security, but it certainly could have scared a newcomer away from the army, or even the region.

Frankly, I was surprised that Balt came here in the first place, and at times, it seemed like he was TRYING to sow dissent.  Just my impression.

[The G Rebellion]

Cartwrightia, we gave him at least two warnings that I know of. I'm not awake enough to argue this right now so I won't even try... But I do still think that we did give him enough opportunity to stop his behaviour. If he wants a court appeal, I say we give him one.

The only point I will ask though is, what minister found the impersonation funny?

[Zimmerwald]

Let me repeat; he's been informed of his rights.  If he doesn't decide to act on them, then nothing we say here will reverse anything.

[Of The US]

ivwe asked him about it on MSN he said he can live without taijitu, i guess he doesnt really care

[Daimiaen]

Thanx TCM....for providing both the evidence involved(WooT!! for transparency) and for a reasoned argument as to why the banning occurred....
I hereby withdraw all previous comments regarding this incident....

[Feniexia]

Oh, btw, Balt posted the ressource system which we use in the Lex...dunno who invented it, but I just read it now.

Edit: Spelling error