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Poll

Is the Democratic Party going to kill itself for good?

Yes
1 (14.3%)
No
0 (0%)
It's dead already
1 (14.3%)
Yes, but either of the Democrats will still beat John McCain
5 (71.4%)

Total Members Voted: 7

Author Topic: This is Hillary Clinton's America.  (Read 2003 times)

Offline Eientei

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This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« on: March 28, 2008, 04:14:36 AM »
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/27/big_democrat_donors_among_pelo.html

Liberal San Francisco congresswoman and Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi said recently that Democratic superdelegates should not overturn either of the candidates' lead in delegates.  Since Obama is almost certainly going to maintain his lead by the last of the primaries, this would obviously put Clinton at a great disadvantage.  A bunch of her supporters, who happen to also be big Democratic donors, are now pushing Pelosi to take her words back.

There are certainly problems with our electoral system, but nomination by a lead in pledged delegates is the closest thing we have to a democratic choice in terms of our presidential candidates.  These donors are leaning on Pelosi to support a position that would render the peoples' decision null and void, which is shameful.  I understand that Hillary is going to do what she can to win, but at the expense of popular confidence in her own party?  Sure, why not.

Anyway, maybe I'm preaching to the choir here.  What do you think?

Offline St Oz

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 12:38:11 PM »
You want to know what I think? Hillary's a total bitch and the only reason she won the primary in Texas was because Republicans united and voted in the Democratic Primary to make tensions worse. Only people who like Hillary Clinton are Tube Tied Gawking Feminist Bitches, Husbands/men who are whipped, People who just care that she's a woman and that America seems to need a woman president, and those who are gullible enough to believe those hairy lies that are longer than a 30 year old french whore


^_^ That's my opinion (bitches)

Offline Allama

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 01:41:29 PM »
Oz... :wb:  I missed you.

Anyway, this is such a shameful display of (a) greed, (b) affluence's disgusting influence, (c) party divisiveness, and (d) a whole bunch of other things that are wrong with American politics that reading about it makes me want to vomit.

Kucinich forever.

Offline kor

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 03:17:02 PM »
Why do people still talk about Democrats and Republicans. You all act like they are different. The truth is they are the same. We are a one party system. Really at this point it doesn't matter who is elected. We're pretty much fucked. There's always hope though, I guess.



Offline Eientei

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 03:59:32 PM »
It's not that I'm surprised by this, just pissed off.  I think we all agree that both parties are full of graft and corruption.  We badly need to shake up the system and bring in more parties.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 06:00:37 PM »
Which is why electoral reform is my pet political issue. Shame it doesn't get more attention. Much as people may complain about the two party system for some reason no one seems to grasp the very simple reason behind it and the solutions there of.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 02:46:38 AM by Cornelius Snuffles »

Offline Myroria

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 06:59:59 PM »
What Kor said. This SHOULD be the time of the independents. It's PITIFUL how people will vote for a candidate simply because their party tells them to. What happened to free will?
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Miller18

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 07:38:31 PM »
Why do people still talk about Democrats and Republicans. You all act like they are different. The truth is they are the same. We are a one party system. Really at this point it doesn't matter who is elected. We're pretty much fucked. There's always hope though, I guess.

This is so so true.
Good timber dosen't grow with ease, the stronger the wind the stronger the trees.

Offline Annex

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 02:08:13 AM »
Which is why electoral reform is my pet political issue. Shame it doesn't get more attention.
What Kor said. This SHOULD be the time of the independents. It's PITIFUL how people will vote for a candidate simply because their party tells them to. What happened to free will?
It's not that I'm surprised by this, just pissed off.  I think we all agree that both parties are full of graft and corruption.  We badly need to shake up the system and bring in more parties.

Admittedly, with this state of political discourse in America, it's a natural reaction to claim the two-party system as the root of all corruption. But I am somewhat puzzled by the critic's gospel, implicit or otherwise, that 'independent' candidates will lift America from its electoral ignorance and usher in a state of perfect, ideal politics.

The two-party system developed for many reasons. Patronage, corruption, entrenchment of power and other such vicious cycles are certainly among them. But perhaps the two parties exist because this is all America can easily comprehend. We complain that there are so many stupid people that tacitly agree to this corrupt system; it is those people, too, that make an independent system infeasible. With many independent candidates comes a hyperpluralistic election, a chaos of ideas that (with great help from the massive media filter) must be parsed by individuals. And what can they do to handle this? They simplify, categorize, put things into neat tables and charts. Liberal, conservative, whatever label you wish. This is the natural tendency of Americans; to think that better education and better example would change their nature is respectable, but naive. The equilibrium state of America is a system of two, maybe three, parties. "Shake up" the system and you will create temporary discord, and then the system will become a party system though perhaps under a new veneer of "independence" masquerading the parties as decisions of enlightened individuals. And nevermind the assumption, again naive, that politicians would participate correctly in this pluralistic discourse - many independents would only multiply the probability of attack politics, of corruption, of twisting words. But on that point I'd prefer not to argue, so to move on:

What the two party system, flawed as it is, can offer is a limited, incremental change in whatever direction the electoral system dictates. Policy shifts, leadership changes hands, but in large part the society and government remains unchanged. THAT is a founding principle of our government, and of our bureaucracy - that change should be possible, but always calm. To quote Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France:

"This distemper of remedy, grown habitual, relaxes and wears out, by a vulgar and prostituted use, on the spring of that spirit which is to be exerted on great occasions."

 We, seeing the failures of the status quo, call for independent participation; but they would break the incrementalism that allows society while the populace remains largely amenable to their current situation. In short, we don't want change, we don't want diverse voices to echo in our heads calling for this change and that upheaval. We are, inevitably, creatures of simple habit, not creatures of political perfection. It would be wonderful to have a diverse discourse, but given the size and composition of our people, a "dull sluggish race, rendered passive by finding our situtation tolerable [...] and prevented by a mediocrity of freedom from ever attaining to its full perfection" to quote Burke again, it only detracts from what little progress we can manage to make such complaints.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 02:10:00 AM by Binary Trip »

Offline kor

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2008, 02:30:56 AM »
Yes, the two party system would do that, but the US doesn't have a two party system. They have the same goals and beliefs for the most part.



Offline Xyrael

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2008, 02:57:45 AM »
Join the Revolution!

I have become, again and again.

Offline Eientei

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 03:03:25 AM »
I have to admit, Binary Trip has a point.  I've considered a lot of that - most Americans fall into the two-party system, accept it and allow it to continue.  I don't expect any change from above, either.  A different electoral system could naturally open the way for more parties to participate nationally, but who's going to agree to that?  Most if not all Democrats and Republicans wouldn't vote to deprive their parties of even one percent of their influence.  I do think opening the political system to more parties would be a good thing, at least in terms of the scope of debate, as you pointed out.

It's depressing and disheartening, but I still believe there's a place for independents in this country, even if it's just to speak out against the current system.

Or, you know, COMMUNIST REVOLUTION.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 03:21:25 AM by Eientei »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2008, 04:32:39 AM »
I wouldn't lose all hope; Vermont's state legislature has gone so far as to recently pass legislation which would have all congressional elections conducted by IRV. It's a shame that it'll probably be vetoed by the governor.

And unfortunately, for my preferences to be realized at least, some amount of change would have to come from the top; there's currently a federal law on the books which requires states to use single member districts for congressional elections (the original motivation behind which was, ironically, actually quite benevolent).

Offline Xyrael

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2008, 04:58:51 AM »
I hope Obama wins. She's going to tank the Democratic party by being yet another moderate (aka right wing) democrat. I want a lefty, I want fucking national healthcare. I'm sick of worrying whether my job will give me benefits or not or my dad will cut me from his insurance policy. Can't we have a damned mixed system by now, a basic standard public insurance and then a more efficient private system? So I at least have a basic comprehensive plan? That's my big issue, I couldn't care less about the war. 4,000 Americans dead, thats the least there's been dead in ages.
I have become, again and again.

Offline Annex

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Re: This is Hillary Clinton's America.
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 12:20:46 AM »
I have to admit, Binary Trip has a point.

WHAT?!??!? This is unprecedented.