Taijitu
Forum Meta => Archive => General Discussion Archive => Topic started by: Tacolicious on July 21, 2007, 08:55:34 AM
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http://forum.taijitu.org/delegates-office/what-happend-and-why!/0/ (http://forum.taijitu.org/delegates-office/what-happend-and-why!/0/)
If you also feel this action violates the very spirit of what this fine region stands for then please speak up, protest, demand answers and hold those responsible to account.
The only rights that we truly have are those which we refuse to allow to be infringed upon
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This is a shock to a lot of people, Taco. You have every right to be upset by this, and I'm sure others will be as well.
But it -is- sudden, and it -is- a shock to the system. And there will be a lot of knee-jerk reactions because of it. So I'm hoping that people will step back for a bit. Scream at the screen, punch some pillows. And then proceed with a level head once we've had some time to absorb things and think things through.
We all need to do some talking. And then we can do some listening. And in the end, we'll do what we believe is best. But until that point, I think it's a bit early to press charges. There will be time for that, if anyone decides that's the way to go.
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. Evil thrives when good people don't act in it's presence, and at the moment I see it as against my reason to let this actions go unpunished. The fact that it was sudden is exactly why we must act fast, and not sit around doing nothing.
I'll repost my previous post regarding this issue:
Very well, this autocratic decision, masquerading as an invasion, is just a way to boost the political power of the evildoers, by remove all democratic states from TAIJITU isolating them in an unwinnable war in the Rejected Realms, and removing the overall UN influence of the democratic states by eliminating their endorsements.
I hope that the responsible people in the Supreme Court will see the clear danger of the actual TAIJITU Executives that plunged the region into chaos, only to make means for their absolute control over the TAIJITU and removal of political opposition, by using a demagogical and populist war that will surely have a huge negative influence over the future and stability of this region.
This is indeed a very bad day for TAIJITU, we must act fast to avoid this from escalating and bring to justice the tyrants; we already lost a lot of good countries and as a word of advice, brace yourself for the future blowbacks that will come from this mad expansionistic unprovoked attack.
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Ironic that this region began because of the actions of a few autocratic people in the Lexicon acting in the assumption that *they* knew and *they* could decide what was best for the region.
Those in charge here in Taijitu protested at that and fled that and now they are in charge, and what do we see.........
exactly the same high-handedness.
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This is a shock to a lot of people, Taco. You have every right to be upset by this, and I'm sure others will be as well.
But it -is- sudden, and it -is- a shock to the system. And there will be a lot of knee-jerk reactions because of it. So I'm hoping that people will step back for a bit. Scream at the screen, punch some pillows. And then proceed with a level head once we've had some time to absorb things and think things through.
We all need to do some talking. And then we can do some listening. And in the end, we'll do what we believe is best. But until that point, I think it's a bit early to press charges. There will be time for that, if anyone decides that's the way to go.
Well I think that exactly the problem Moma Khab. This action was taken without talking and without listening to the will of the people. Taijitu has an armed forces to take part in these actions. I have been used as an unwilling pawn in a war which I never asked to be a part of and my rights have been violated as a result and had I been asked if I would like to be a part of this before being shipped out gun in hand I would have said "NO". I am a peace loving hippie, not a tool of war.
I fully intend to go forward with this case, because I believe that it is the best thing I can do to protect the rights and freedoms of the citizens of Taijitu and to see that such a dreadful occurrence never happens again. The question becomes what do we do when our rights our violated, get into a huff and act as if nothing happened a few days later or do we stand up as freedom loving citizens and say "What you did is wrong and I will hold you to account for your actions"
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Yeah, I agree with Taco. This is an infringement on our rights and cannot go ignored. Not only have we been exploited by those we thought we could trust, a quick glance at the NationStates forums shows that Taijitu's reputation is rapidly declining.
This will not stand!
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I am concerned for two reasons:
I am concerned for the RR. When we say we are going in to "Bring Democracy" we are doing exactly the same as powerful nations have done in the real world. We were not invited, we were not asked. If this had been done to Taijitu, we would have been up in arms. But we are the ones wielding the stick, so it is OK?
I am concerned for Taijitu. For our reputation and, more importantly, for what this means to what Taijitu stands for. Months ago a bunch of people left the Lexicon because those in charge basically said "we will decide what is right for this region, and if the rest of you do not like it you can leave." In the justification for the invasion of the Rejected realms I see exactly the same attitude being displayed here and now.
"we decide what is best. We decide what is right." I am ashamed and sad that this is what Taijitu actually stands for. I am also ashamed that I was duped into believing it stood for something better.
Stupid, stupid, stupid me.
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It does stand for something more, and we can not let a single mistake divide this region. If in the days ahead we can stand together as a region and affirm that freedom and democracy are what we stand for then we can rebuild our reputation in NS, we can show why we are the best region in NS and we can take steps to ensure that these mistakes are never made again and be stronger as a result.
I believe in freedom
I believe in democracy
I believe in the right of the individual to make their own choices
My home is Taijitu and I will defend its rights and freedoms because I love Taijitu
Stand together my friends and stand tall. Do not let this wonderful region fall apart because of one bad choice. Defend Taijitu and defend your rights.
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wait, wait. What is SD and POD saying?
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That we should act in a way similar to the US in their invasion of Iraq in order to bring democracy to the Middl- Rejected Realms.
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this dosnt seem that great of a move makes me wish i had stayed out of this region, perhaps i shall find a new one that dosnt force people to do things with out their will
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There is a vote being held in the Senate to impeach PoD as I type.
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There should be no worry that the system would be broken. Rather there are rotten eggs in the basket and they are being exchanged for fresh ones as we speak.
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I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole.
Actually, I am. Even though I'm a libertarian, and one might think I'd find this a major violation of someone's rights, I'm not angered like some. Those that were in the army shouldn't be upset, because this was an order. Calling ejecting those in the army "a violation of their rights" is akin to calling the order of a general a violation of the soldier's rights.
HOWEVER,
It may or may not be the case that those that were not in the army were ejected. If this was the case (Which I don't know), it is a total violation of their rights, and, as Taco said, conscription.
In a nutshell:
If you're in the army, stop bitching.
If you're not, then be angered.
It is, also, a ZOMGHUGE violation of TRR's rights to FORCE a democracy on them. If they don't want a democracy, so what? Unless the people themselves ASK you to make a democracy, it's just another invasion, which, as I've made public on IRC, despise because it forces someone to give up their freedom.
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I agree with Myro, actually.
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I'm not touching this with a ten-foot pole.
Actually, I am. Even though I'm a libertarian, and one might think I'd find this a major violation of someone's rights, I'm not angered like some. Those that were in the army shouldn't be upset, because this was an order. Calling ejecting those in the army "a violation of their rights" is akin to calling the order of a general a violation of the soldier's rights.
HOWEVER,
It may or may not be the case that those that were not in the army were ejected. If this was the case (Which I don't know), it is a total violation of their rights, and, as Taco said, conscription.
In a nutshell:
If you're in the army, stop bitching.
If you're not, then be angered.
It is, also, a ZOMGHUGE violation of TRR's rights to FORCE a democracy on them. If they don't want a democracy, so what? Unless the people themselves ASK you to make a democracy, it's just another invasion, which, as I've made public on IRC, despise because it forces someone to give up their freedom.
Well I'm not in the military and was ejected and many people not in the military were also ejected with no prior warning in the middle of the night. If this were a strictly military act I would not be objecting.
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Though I, as Romanar, see the strategic and tactical genious to mask the invasion by also ejecting non-military citizens, I fully agree with Myroria in that doing so is an atrocity of it's own similiar to using red cross ambulances as offencive troop carriers to infiltrate behind enemy lines in RL.
EDIT: A way to tell something is REALLY out of place: I, Soly AND Garth agree! :o
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Alright, I've thought a great deal about this. I can understand the feelings on many sides of this.
1. That it is a game, and that military strategy and takeovers are a part of it. In our Ministry of Defense, it says "We specialise in neither invading nor defending, striving to be the epitome of excellence in both fields." I read that when I first came to Taijitu, and because of that, I chose not to join the armed forces. Raiding isn't for me, although I know there are others who enjoy that aspect of the game. But I chose to stay in Taijitu anyway, knowing that raids might happen, because I accept that it's part of the game.
2. And I can understand Taco's stance, that he is firmly opposed to raiding and is angry to have been forced to take part in one without his knowledge, when he thought that simply not choosing to take part in one would be enough. To me, that is good reason for our region -not- to do this again.
3. And I can see Flemingovia's side as well, that although this is a game, communities develop, and people are upset when this sort of thing happens. I know I would have been upset if someone had raided Taijitu, because I'm happy with the delegate that we have and the others in government as well. It wouldn't change the fact that the people I know and love are still in the region, though, and that's really the most important of the game for me. That's just my own personal perspective on things.
As for my own thoughts on the matter, I would have advised against it if I'd been asked, for the reason that Taco gave - some are strongly against raiding at all and I think we have to respect that when we can. But I'm still supporting Gunner. Even though raiding isn't for me, I accept that it is a part of the game, and that power does play an important role in that aspect of things. I can ignore the military aspects because they don't interest me. But what he did was strategically sound.
I also know him to be a fair and level-headed person, and not some rogue who doesn't care what the rest of us think. I know he's reading all of the responses, and he's taking them to heart. Note that I didn't say I -believe- that he is. I -know- that he is. When I spoke with him privately and expressed concern for how this is all going to affect him, he responded by saying that he's expendable, that it's Taijitu that's important. I know he's considering everything that's been said, and he'll make his decisions based on what's best for the region.
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Note that I am just saying that I belive a double atrocity has been commited, firstly agains the non-military citizens of Taijitu that was ejected as a cover-up of the offencive and then against the members of TRR assuming they did not ask for this invasion/intervention.
I am not calling for heads.
... As skulls for the brass throne of the blood good is a heresy to the Emperor.
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Ok, now that I have more time on my hands I can explain why I'm pretty ticked off by this.
Mainly my concern is for others in the region: Those with a large number of endorsements that lost them due to being ejected and those that weren't in the army (like me). The fact that we were lied to when it was said that it was for "spreading democracy," and to me seems like a lie and nothing more than an ego trip, and even if it was for "spreading democracy," it was the complete wrong way to go about it. Forcing a region into a certain government is hardly democratic. Lastly there's this little, totally unimportant document called "the constitution" that was violated in the process, which Taco pointed out.
I'm all for raiding, even for a self-centered ego trip, but I don't appreciate being lied too and I don't appreciate that those who didn't want to do it were forced too.
I've moved back to Taijitu, I'll be damned if Dixie or Gunner get my endorsements, and I'm all for his impeachment.
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I would ask that you endorse not to show support but to protect our now weakened position. The current delegate in Taijitu has a scant 73 endorsements right now which could easily be taken in a counter strike against us. I like yesterday better when I didn't have to worry about retaliation or keeping the region in the hands of the legally elected delegate.
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Some may call me a dick for this, but if I had been Delegate, this wouldn't have happened.
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You're such a dick, Soly.
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And so are you Garth ;)
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can someone tell me whats going on!
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Read the link in the very first post of this thread Bara. It explains what this is all about.
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so..a invasion just happened?
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http://z8.invisionfree.com/The_RR_and_RRA/index.php?showtopic=1657 (http://z8.invisionfree.com/The_RR_and_RRA/index.php?showtopic=1657)
I believe this topic from TRR forums pretty much sums up the way they feel about what has happened.
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oh, Revolution that we are supporting by invading?
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/me slaps her forehead.
and this is why we have been crucifying Insane Power for so long.
i am pretty upset this happened without consulting the community first, this realy should have been chosen by the people. so much for democracy. hey PURhaps another region will spawn because of this..... i hope not.
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I can't see that happening, PUR. This is a short-lived isolated event, not OMGBANNINGZ!!! I have no doubt things will settle down very quickly, and everything will be back to normal.
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Look firstly, I am not in on the plan, but for obvious reasons it was kept secret from the people, which is wrong. However they have shaken the game up a bit but in doing so, likely damaged their relations with all the regions rushing to defend The Rejected Realms.
However, the Supreme Court is currently beginning an investigation into the matter.
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I can't see that happening, PUR. This is a short-lived isolated event, not OMGBANNINGZ!!! I have no doubt things will settle down very quickly, and everything will be back to normal.
it is frighteningly familiar to the event which caused or fine region to come into being, i was there i know...
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No its not. IP banned Ryazania, denied he ever existed, and disbanded the High Council. He was never punished.
Here, we invaded a region, kept every part of the government, and there's been a move for impeachment.
Yeah, eerily similar.
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I'm just saying there's no reason to get alarmist over it. Things are being dealt with. People are not locked out of the region. Gunner has already come home and is working toward a peaceful resolution.
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I'd like to say that this is not at all like the fall of the Lexicon.
I mean, if it were, you'd not be seeing this thread for one thing. It would be hidden away & deleted.
Just my :2c: on the subject.
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Not having been around during The Lexicon's time, I'm just happy things are being dealt with in a transparent and democratic way now. If PoD Gunner didn't have the authority to take such action without the approval of the government, it's clear to me that he should be removed from office.
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It had a similar vibe, i stand by what i said at the time, for it was appropriate for what i felt was happening. however i am glad things are being resolved in a much better way.
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Is it possible to investigate whether or not other members of the Executive and/or Taijitu were a part of the Rejected Realms invasion?
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No its not. IP banned Ryazania, denied he ever existed, and disbanded the High Council. He was never punished.
Here, we invaded a region, kept every part of the government, and there's been a move for impeachment.
Yeah, eerily similar.
What, who banned Ryz?
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Insane Power back in the Lexicon.
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oh.
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Gunner's vibe is nothing like IP's. :P
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whos IP?
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whos IP?
Insane Power.
And I agree, whatever mistakes Gunner's made, he's no IP.
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ah....
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While the process of seeking Justice against those who perpetrated this act is important, the more urgent matter at hand is to ensure the security of the region. It may take a few days for everyone that wishes to return to filter back in. At the moment the G Rebellion only has 80 endorsements. At present this is insufficient to repel a significant attack. With people in TRR and elsewhere calling for a counter attack we need to do everything we can to increase G Rebellion's endorsement number. If you have a UN nation in a different region, I would suggest moving it to Taijitu temporarily.
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It would appear I've arrived at this topic a bit behind the times, but I think I made my opinion fairly well known in the other places in which this "raid" was discussed. I do have a little to add, though:
I believe PoD Gunner cares very much about this region. He made a pretty serious mistake with this, that much is certain, but I believe he truly does want to do what is best for Taijitu and we shouldn't categorize him as some sort of monster for one mistake. Due process (such as the impeachment proceedings) should be followed, of course, but he's still a good person.
That's really all I have to say for now.
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Well, impeachment failed and SD/Flemingovia are Delegate and Vice Delegate. All in all, this didn't end up as badly as we thought.
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Well things worked out well. I think we've raised enough of an uproar to say that this kind of thing is unacceptable and there were no blood thirsty mobs chopping off heads. We're stronger as a community and we can all look back and laugh. I'd say it's a win for us all and the ultimate proof that we have moved beyond a break-off region of Lex and shown that we practice what we preach.
*Taco pats himself on the back and pats a few other backs as well*
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Well, I don't think I'll laugh persay, but it has been a learning experience for everyone. I think we've grown from it, at the very least.