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Author Topic: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!  (Read 15515 times)

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2007, 08:20:41 AM »
Catholic protestant isn't catholic, and that's only the catholic version of blacklist for heaven. And don't forget to add Turkish.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2007, 07:39:13 PM »
I'm agreeing with you towlie. I, like you, are criticizing religion's extensive blacklist.
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Offline Towlie

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2007, 07:43:10 PM »
sweet i was i a heavily religious area and people usually jump down my throat because of me challenging what they were taught from day one
Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink. --Lady Astor to Winston Churchill
Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it. --His reply
When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. --Henny Youngman

Offline Ryazania

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2007, 08:06:23 PM »
Myroria, I believe I have addressed that particular issue on more than once occasion. The simple fact of the matter is that NONE of the New Testament was written by Jesus, and the four that describe his life have likely been altered. The only part of the Bible I take for accuracy is the Old Testament.

Anyway, think about this:
A human life is finite, limiting the amount of sin one can do.
God is just, therefore He would make an appropriate punishment if there is to be one. With that in mind, Hell as it is taken by modern Christians simply contradicts the image of an all-merciful and just God.
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When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline Myroria

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2007, 08:20:28 PM »
I'm not rejecting that God - if there is one - would be just. Hell is simply not just. I've always been a believer in "[If there is a Heaven and Hell], one cannot be sent to an eternity in Hell for a sin they committed during a limited life".
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2007, 08:29:45 PM »
you don't seem to be believing much, are you christian at all?

Offline Ryazania

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2007, 09:03:23 PM »
He hasn't said he was, and he basically repeated what I said.
Economic Left/Right: 9.65
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.37

Proud Constitutionalist

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.


Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2007, 12:14:51 AM »
yes but he says his nation is Catholic but doesn't believe in Christ, which is it? I sense some confusion in that.

Talking about God, but not talking about god, that's my only doubt, are we talking about God, Religion or Catholics?

The New Testament is actually different from the original as many say and practically scientifically proved. That's the basis for Dan Brown's novel. Is religion just about faith in something transcendent, or the cult of metaphysics? or is it a regime of established concepts and ideas about this unquestionable transcendence?

Now we will have 'commies' saying it's a regime
believers saying it's faith
what do you think?

You don't have to believe in God to say it's faith, i have faith in the truth but I'm not Buddhist nor i believe in any specific God. But my faith is self-questionable because i assume it may not be right at all times, as a principle, making it a regime of ideals or principles.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2007, 12:19:04 AM »
Delfos: I hover between atheism and Deism. And the Myrorian Catholic Church accepts Jesus as the son of God and is thus Christian, it's just very different from most Christian churches. Myrorian Catholicism is nothing like Roman Catholicism besides its name and the fact its run by a single, Pope-like person. But that's beside the point.
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2007, 02:32:00 AM »
then it's christian and not catholic. main difference in religious figures of Catholicism and protestant religions is the fact catholics worship other figures beyond God, like saints and stuff, the pope is another holy figure, and priests are like kings imposing a law. Protestants normally only believe in God and Christ, or christian God, and there's no other figures beyond that. But you talk about other Prophets, so it's more like a special doctrine, and if you accept other prophets to be sons of God or sent by God then it's not christian either. Catholics are specific, a group of Christians, and Christians are all that believe in a Christian God and Christ, doesn't matter if they accept abortion or not. So i would suggest you chance Myrorian Catholicism to...Myrorianism? sounds good to me, and you are not specifying a specific religion besides your own national religion.

I'm not very informed about Deism, maybe we call it another name around here, but Atheists don't believe anything transcend them, if you have a religion or faith in something you cannot control, then probably you are not Atheist, I know I'm not.

But you haven't answered the last question and I'm interested to know many answers, maybe it can light PUR (Neil! why did he change his name).

Offline Prydania

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2007, 05:56:32 PM »
Delfos-Deists believe that G-d exists, he created the world, and then stepped back to enjoy the show. Basically A Deist believes that once G-d was finished created the universe He let it take it's own course and hasn't interfered in any way since. It was big in the US after independence, as well as in Britain. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are the two most recognizable names when it comes to Deism.

Ok, onto what I believe. I'm a Jew, and as such I believe in the basic principals of Judaism. I have my own set of personal beliefs regarding the Torah (the Old Testament to most) that may differ with the views of other Jews, so I'll try to separate my personal beliefs with the beliefs that I share with most other Jews.
G-d is omnipotent. He created the universe, and He created Earth for man to hold dominion over. He gave us Earth as a theatre to live our lives on. He doesn't want us to spend all day praising him, or wasting every moment of our lives in His service. He basically just wants us to be good people, to treat our fellow man with dignity and respect. Heck, He doesn't even care if most of us believe in Him (I'll get to that latter).
There's a story in the Talmud (the Torah+other religious text written afterwards) about a man who wasted his whole life serving G-d. He stayed celibate his whole life, and spent most of his day in Temple praying. He never indulged in pleasures of the Earth, never drank, never celebrated, always spent his time working in the name of G-d. When he died he went to heaven, and G-d confronted him. He told the man He was disappointed in him. 
"But I dedicated my life to your service my Lord" the man protested.
"I have denied you so much in the form of My commandments, why would deny yourself any more pleasure?" G-d asked.

And that sums up the basic Jewish view in G-d, a belief I was born into and have accepted. G-d created Earth for man to rule, and He occasionally lends a helping hand when needed.

Ok, onto the heaven thing. Who gets in? Judaism is unique among the Western faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) in that we don't believe you have to be one of us to get in. Let me explain.
We believe that G-d created all races of men, but chose the Jews as his "Chosen People." Now this sounds more glamorous then it really is, and anyone even remotely familiar with the history of the Jewish people can tell you that. Being G-d's "Chosen People" means that G-d chose us to to be the people to maintain His faith. We're the ones G-d chose to keep his faith, come hell or high water, even it means persecution. Essentially, no matter what happens to us, we have to keep the faith. That's why Jews have been so reluctant to convert. It's a matter of upholding a responsibility given to us by the All Mighty.
Back to heaven, who gets in? If you're born a Jew G-d expects you to keep the faith, so only people born Jewish are required to practise the religion in order to get into heaven. If you aren't born a Jew all G-d asks is that you follow the Seven Laws of Noah. These consist of the Ten Commandments with the three religious ones removed. So basically Jews believe that if you're not born Jewish, but still lead a good life, you get in, no questions asked. Seeing as a non-Jew doesn't have to convert to get in, someone who does convert to Judaism is to be considered just as Jewish as someone born into the faith. This is because the person has converted for the love of G-d faith, not to "better their chances" at getting into heaven, since the person would have gotten in simply by leading an honest life.
All of this ties into the concept of the Chosen People. G-d chose us to preserve His faith, hence it's up to us to keep that faith. Abandoning the faith He gave our ancestors is paramount to abandoning the responsibility he gave us. That is why if a born Jew abandons the faith he doesn't get into heaven.
All the other races of man, however, are just as much creations of G-d as we Jews are. Since He hasn't chosen any of them to carry on His faith He doesn't expect them to follow it. All He asks of non Jews is that they lead a good, honest life.
It's impossible to explain G-d's nature. As human beings our minds simply aren't able to comprehend His nature. We assign him titles like "King" "Judge" or "Lord." We even simplify him, as Myro stated, as the "invisible man in the sky."
All of these titles and descriptions, however, are only meant to simply G-d's nature into something we as humans can understand. We simply can't understand G-d's true nature, so we simply Him to the role of a king or judge so we can comprehend who He is.

So that's the general belief structure of the Jewish religion, a belief structure I've embraced.
I do, however, have my own beliefs and ideas within that belief structure, that to be honest pisses a lot of Jews off. Most of these beliefs fall under what I call the "Two types" theory.
Here's an example of it in action.
People say homosexuality is wrong, because it says so in the Bible, the part of the Bible that Christians and Jews share. True, the Torah (Old Testament, Bible, whatever you want to call it) says homosexuality is evil. The Bible, however, says a lot of other things. According to the Torah every Saturday I'm suppose to go to Jerusalem to BBQ a goat. It also says I have to kill any Jew I see working on Saturday, and my dad is allowed to trade my sister for a camel.
My point is that the Bible is full of stories. Some of them are filled with good moral lessons that help people lead honest lives. Other stories, however, preach about outdated laws and customs that may have had a purpose 5,000 years ago, but have since lost meaning. It's with the stories about BBQing a goat and killing people working on the weekend that I place the passage condemning homosexuality. Yes, it's in there, but I feel it's one of the passages that has lost any sense of relativity.
So I don't believe the Torah word for word. I believe that some stories serve as great tools to help you live your life, while others are outdated remnants of a past long gone. We need to recognize the difference between the two. Condemning homosexuals simply because it says so in the Bible makes as much sense as me booking a flight to Jerusalem this Saturday to BBQ a goat. 

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2007, 06:35:34 PM »
Very nice, i heard about Deism in this forum already but you actually resumed it. I think we call it in a totally different way.

I have some regards specially towards on what i see a Jewish society can become. I once saw a documentary about Israel's society and the 'prayers' and all the religion around it. And got a bit revolted, how can they imply judgment on the Palestinians and Iranians when their society is even more ruled by religion than the others? Maybe you could explain me about Israelite society and the influence of Judaism? Like why men may not work at all and pray whole life while women get to work their ass off, things like that. Maybe i was missinformed?

Offline Prydania

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2007, 07:18:33 PM »
I have some regards specially towards on what i see a Jewish society can become. I once saw a documentary about Israel's society and the 'prayers' and all the religion around it. And got a bit revolted, how can they imply judgment on the Palestinians and Iranians when their society is even more ruled by religion than the others? Maybe you could explain me about Israelite society and the influence of Judaism? Like why men may not work at all and pray whole life while women get to work their ass off, things like that. Maybe i was missinformed?
Well concerning Israel, in theory, the state was established as a Jewish homeland, and to be frank, if we want to set up a society where we practise our own faith, so be it. Israel doesn't condemn the Palestinians and Iran because they're Islamic societies, if a state is founded by Muslims, and they want society within the state to revolve around Islam, then so be it. The issue isn't religious, especially considering Islam and Judaism are actually very close belief-wise. The issue is survival. To Jews, and Israelis especially, the Palestinians and Iran want to wipe Israel, their nation, off the map. Wouldn't you be pissed at an other country if the destruction of Portugal was an official government position? The condemnation of the Palestinians and Iran, from the Jewish perspective at least, is born out of self-defence. Sort of like a "They want to wipe us out? Well we'll fight back" kind of mentality.
It's just incidental that the two states in question are Islamic in nature. Judaism isn't anti-Muslim, in fact Mohammad was one of the few non-Jews throughout history to treat the Jews as equals. If a state wants to be Islamic in nature, we couldn't care less. We only condemn the Palestinians and Iran because they threaten our survival as a people, at least from our perspective. Even then, we don't want to wipe them off the map, we just believe that if/when they attack we should be ready, and our ultimate wish is that they would just let us be.
If the Jews, and again, Israelis in particular, didn't view the Palestinians and Iran as a threat to our survival, we wouldn't have any problem with them. Likewise if the United States, for example, made it part of their foreign policy to wipe out Israel (almost happened too), then Israel would condemn the US. It's not because Judaism is anti-American, it's because in that scenario the US was threatening Israel's survival.
Again, I pose the question, wouldn't you condemn a country if they made the destruction of Portugal and the Portuguese people an official government policy? You wouldn't hate them because of their religion or how their society works, you simply hate them because they have openly advocated for the destruction of your people.
So I hope I answered your questions in regards to why Israel, the Palestinians, and Iran.

Now onto what I assume was the more important part of your question, Jewish society. Again, I'll say what I said at the start, in theory Israel was founded as a Jewish state, therefore shouldn't Jews be allowed to practise their culture there?
I do, however, agree with you 100% about your assessment of what you saw of Jewish society. What you saw were the Orthodox. Generally speaking there are three levels of Judaism, Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform.
Orthodox Jews follow the Torah to the letter, if it says something in the Torah they do it. They're the ones you see with the long hair, wearing a prayer shawl outside of Temple, in all black, with the long beards.
Next you have the Conservative Jews. They're pretty normal, you probably couldn't pick one out of a crowd. They're Jews who don't believe in following the Torah to the letter, they interpret the Holy Text, and see how it applies to the modern world. Still, they go to Temple every Saturday morning, and the services are mostly in Hebrew.
Then you have the Reform. They follow the Torah even less then the Conservatives. They don't keep Kosher (Jewish dietary laws), they believe that a Jew should only follow the parts of the Torah that he or she feels at ease with. Services are usually held in the primary language (where I am that would be English, I would assume a Reform service in Portugal would be held mainly in Portuguese). Only a few passages, the really important ones, are read in Hebrew.

The portion of Jewish society you saw was the Orthodox fraction (both a small part of the worldwide and Israeli Jewish populations, actually). Like I said above, they follow the Torah to the letter, only utilizing modern innovations when necessary. This means that they live in a manner very much like ancient Jews. They pray all the time, and the women work most of the day. In actuality the Orthodox lifestyle contradicts what the Torah says, they're simply keeping alive a way of life that has existed for so long. They blindly read the Torah, never questioning it, which ironically goes against the Torah. The Torah teaches us to question our teachings to expand our mind, so by reading and following it blindly like the Orthodox do, they're defying the Torah.
My personal view of the Orthodox, and the society they live in, is similar to my view of anyone who takes their faith word by word. I believe they're short sited and maybe emotionally weak, using religion as a crutch.
I'm a Jew, yes, but I use my faith as simply something to guide me through life, not as something that controls me.
The documentary that you saw only focused on a small segment of the Jewish population. Most Jews don't prescribe to their outdated way of thinking, and their constant meddling in the Israeli government had halted peace talks more times then I care to count.
As to you being misinformed, it would depend, I guess. If they presented the Orthodox community as how Jews act all over the world, then yes, you were mislead. That actually provides an interesting opening for me to ask this question.
I've heard that Portugal is actually one of the more anti-Semitic places in the world? Is that true? I've never been there, and I'm not accusing you, I'm just telling you what I've been told. Is anti-Semitism prevalent in Portugal?

Offline Delfos

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2007, 08:11:10 PM »
You have split the matter in two, but they declare jihad, and since we're talking of religion based states then i would mix both. Seems you don't have religious basis to actually say who's right and who's wrong. And What i meant is that the structure isn't much difference, as you told that Islamic and Judaic society/culture isn't much different in base of religion, so i assume this is a 'western' influence to think Israelite think they have better society than the Islamic ones.

I actually saw the difference of those groups, they boarded other living groups in Israel, specially the catholic and other Christians. But my problem was actually the extreme influence the religion had in the society, where the 'prayers' were actually payed with pensions by the state and all that. That's why i initially referenced other Islamic cultures around Israel, where i actually do not consider they have less developed society than Israelite.

About that if you deserve or not a place to have Judaic people, sure you do...but it could have been some other place...why Jerusalem? Saladin wouldn't be happy if he could see this from his grave...but that's another issue that i do not want to discuss because i do not believe Jerusalem should be held by a single religion/state, otherwise it should be the rightful ones that actually conquered Jerusalem (by force).

About anti-semitism. I don't know where you heard that. Well it's in our history and most of the European history that to please the Catholic Church we all had to expel the Jews out of our countries. But there's allot of stories about Jews in Portugal, the 1st is that we sent them all to Holland (Netherlands) because it was neutral to the Catholic Church. That's one of the reasons why Netherlands became the best merchant nation a bit after in history. And the court of Portugal kept allot of Jews working for the King, he actually fancied them, not like the Spanish b1tch who would rather decapitate them. To actually tell you a funny story, allot of theories point that Colombo (Columbus) was a Portuguese Jew, one of the protected by the King of Portugal. Anyway moving on in history, we had a dictatorship, deep catholic one, so it would probably be very anti-Semitic, parallel to Hitler's. But after the revolution that is impossible, we have some neo-nazi but they are almost outlawed by the modern constitution, and we are certainly in numbers less racist/xenophobic/anti-semitic than the Spanish, German, English and such. Giving yout he example of Nuetros Hermanos (Spanish), they have regions willing to become independent (Glad we are!) and they have allot of cases of racism over that. If a Catalan go to a Basque pub he gets a twice as expensive beer as a Basque would. That's why i say USA should have some kind of revolution over the right so they could wake up about their nationalism :p

so no, if you heard we have high numbers of anti-semitism, it's either outdated from the time of our dictatorship or false.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Religious Debates - come on in y'all!
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2007, 12:14:25 AM »
Myrorian Catholics believe in Saints. It's very complicated. And I'm not changing its name. Deal with it. Since you want me to explain it so bad, Delfos...

Myrorian Catholicism believes, indisputably, that God created the universe and chose Taijitu's people as His chosen people. Well, all people who accept a God (All Christians, Jews, Muslims). They're going to Heaven, assuming they live a good life. I'll get to the un-chosen people soon. Earth is visited by prophets, saints, etc., but other planets with otherworldly life is not refused. Nor is homosexuality or evolution, in these aspects, we're Deist.

People who follow a philosophic religion, such as Buddhist, Confuscianism, or Taoism, are going to hell for 3 earth years, before they will be allowed into Heaven. This is another thing. Like Islam, we don't believe Hell is eternal. Unless you commit horrible, horrible crimes (genocide, etc.), you're going there no longer than the number of years you lived, plus the age of your victim if you murdered someone at a young age.

And IS, I need to ask this to a real life Jew: If the Jew's are "God's chosen people", and it says so in the Christian Bible (Which most take word-for-word), what's with the Jew-hating? Isn't it kind of counterintuitive to getting on his good side by killing his people?

Commenting about the Israel situation (I was careful not to use "Israel question"...):

Yes, Israel took Palestine's land. That sucks. But the few Muslims that are all attacking Jews and stuff over it need to get over themselves. America lost Northern Maine to Canada, Britain lost the American Colonies, do you think America is suicide bombing Halifax or that Britain is launching SCUDs into Boston?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 12:26:53 AM by Libertarian Monarchy of Myroria »
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."