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Author Topic: Just another political arguing thread  (Read 7986 times)

Offline Solnath

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Just another political arguing thread
« on: April 20, 2007, 03:22:44 AM »
Moved this here to prevent further congestion of the 2008 Election -thread:

Quote from: Solnath
Stalin was a tyrant and a dictator. Against socialist principles, he re-divided his people into classes, including, but not limited to, peasants, kulaks, workers, and Party members, the lattermost who were almost exactly the same as the "bourgeois" they despised, the élite who gained luxuries while the "lower classes" suffered of poverty and famine. Stalin also exercised his infamous Red Terrors that led to the deaths of tens of millions of people, "purging" his subordinates on every possible level until his death in 1953.

Stalin's actions raise him above Hitler in monstrosity, but his actions were hidden from Western eyes mostly because of two reasons: 1) he wasn't the aggressor of World War II and 2) information under his reign was falsified and propaganda was abundant so the Western states, in addition to not wanting to intervene enough, couldn't find out the true severity of the situation.

Please don't connect the Red Tsar to Communism in the word's meaning of a classless, stateless society. It's like saying Hitler was a Founding Father. A blatant and ridiculous lie, unless you ambiguate it to mean "Founding Father of Nazism."
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Offline Talmann

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2007, 03:24:31 AM »
good idea... my socialist/commie/national socialist friend...  ;D  :trout:
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Music is the key to the heart.

"Once art to me was something far off, unfathomable and unreachable... But I discovered that the real essence of art was not something high up and far off, it was right inside my ordinary daily self. If a musician wants to be a fine artist, he must first become a finer person. A work of art is the expression of a person's whole personality, sensibility, and ability." -Shinichi Suzuki

Offline Solnath

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2007, 03:34:19 AM »
Quote from: Talmann on April 20, 2007, 03:24:31 AM
good idea... my socialist/commie/national socialist friend...  ;D  :trout:

No comment. :D
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Offline carraterra

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2007, 05:21:30 AM »
...
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Offline Talmann

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2007, 01:23:16 AM »
Quote
A killing is still a killing...

This is a fact, and I agree with that.

Quote
...and makes whoever does it a moster even if it's by proxy.

This is opinion. I think that one SHOULD, in fact kill any person that comes into a country with deadly intent, or substantial reason to believe they have deadly intent. Plus, as a "capitalist", I prefer that my tax money doesn't go to provide these scumbags with comfortable jail cells, so I advocate getting rid of them to not waste tax money.
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Music is the key to the heart.

"Once art to me was something far off, unfathomable and unreachable... But I discovered that the real essence of art was not something high up and far off, it was right inside my ordinary daily self. If a musician wants to be a fine artist, he must first become a finer person. A work of art is the expression of a person's whole personality, sensibility, and ability." -Shinichi Suzuki

Offline Marsos

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2007, 03:58:13 AM »
Quote from: Talmann on April 21, 2007, 01:23:16 AM
Quote
A killing is still a killing...

This is a fact, and I agree with that.

Quote
...and makes whoever does it a moster even if it's by proxy.

This is opinion. I think that one SHOULD, in fact kill any person that comes into a country with deadly intent, or substantial reason to believe they have deadly intent. Plus, as a "capitalist", I prefer that my tax money doesn't go to provide these scumbags with comfortable jail cells, so I advocate getting rid of them to not waste tax money.
I agree with Tal on this point (big surprise).

Let's assess the logic of prisons:
Okay, you murdered somebody in cold blood. Are we going to sentence you to a lifetime of hard labor? Nooo, you could escape. We'll lock you in your very own private room where you'll get any magazine or book you want (provided it has no sexual or violent content) and you'll get free meals and a bed and a warm place to sleep. You won't even have to work for it. You'll never have to make a big decision again. Just be sure to send a nice letter to the family(ies) of the victim(s) who are currently paying for your jail cell.

I don't know about you, but to me, this doesn't make much sense. The way I figure it, you either sentence them to hard labor (farming for the financially disadvantaged or for their own food, making license plates, manufacturing simple tools, you know the drill), so they're working for their living and paying their debt to society, or you execute them. I feel the former is better in almost all of the cases. It creates in a prisoner a sense of responsibility and purpose, which is key to rehabilitation and also helps them pay their debt.

However, there are a few cases in which placing a prisoner in a somewhat secured workplace is not secure enough, and it is not feasible to make it so. There are also cases in which the crime is so heinous, an extreme deterrent is needed for prevention. In these cases, I would strongly encourage the use of the death penalty. I would elaborate on more specific conditions on persons who should get the death penalty and how a death sentence should be carried out, but this post is too long as it is.
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Offline Talmann

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 04:21:58 AM »
To quote a famous Texan comedian:
"Other states are tryin' to git rid of the death penalty... Mine is puttin' in an express lane!"
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Music is the key to the heart.

"Once art to me was something far off, unfathomable and unreachable... But I discovered that the real essence of art was not something high up and far off, it was right inside my ordinary daily self. If a musician wants to be a fine artist, he must first become a finer person. A work of art is the expression of a person's whole personality, sensibility, and ability." -Shinichi Suzuki

Offline The Empire

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 09:58:15 AM »
And just HOW can you proove someone has deadly intent if they haven't done anything?

And what about the US troops all over the world, they are evidently in other countries with deadly or heinous intent as the violent crime rates soar around US bases. With your reasoning, that would mean that the nations in where the US has bases has all the right in the world to just arrest and execute the lot of them without trial and confiscate the equipment. Or do you belive you have some sort of divine right to decide about people's lives that others don't?
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Offline Romanar

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2007, 11:46:59 AM »
Quote from: Marsos on April 21, 2007, 03:58:13 AM
I agree with Tal on this point (big surprise).

Let's assess the logic of prisons:
Okay, you murdered somebody in cold blood. Are we going to sentence you to a lifetime of hard labor? Nooo, you could escape. We'll lock you in your very own private room where you'll get any magazine or book you want (provided it has no sexual or violent content) and you'll get free meals and a bed and a warm place to sleep. You won't even have to work for it. You'll never have to make a big decision again. Just be sure to send a nice letter to the family(ies) of the victim(s) who are currently paying for your jail cell.

I don't know about you, but to me, this doesn't make much sense. The way I figure it, you either sentence them to hard labor (farming for the financially disadvantaged or for their own food, making license plates, manufacturing simple tools, you know the drill), so they're working for their living and paying their debt to society, or you execute them. I feel the former is better in almost all of the cases. It creates in a prisoner a sense of responsibility and purpose, which is key to rehabilitation and also helps them pay their debt.

However, there are a few cases in which placing a prisoner in a somewhat secured workplace is not secure enough, and it is not feasible to make it so. There are also cases in which the crime is so heinous, an extreme deterrent is needed for prevention. In these cases, I would strongly encourage the use of the death penalty. I would elaborate on more specific conditions on persons who should get the death penalty and how a death sentence should be carried out, but this post is too long as it is.

I agree with you on that point.  Prisons are supposed to be for two purposes, punishment and rehabilitation.  Putting a hardened killer in a cushy room to read magazines doesn't do either, and if a prisoner is beyond rehabilitation, he should get the death penalty.

However, I also agree with this:

Quote from: The Empire on April 21, 2007, 09:58:15 AM
And just HOW can you proove someone has deadly intent if they haven't done anything?

And what about the US troops all over the world, they are evidently in other countries with deadly or heinous intent as the violent crime rates soar around US bases. With your reasoning, that would mean that the nations in where the US has bases has all the right in the world to just arrest and execute the lot of them without trial and confiscate the equipment. Or do you belive you have some sort of divine right to decide about people's lives that others don't?

I have no objection to executing proven killers, but I have HUGE problems with holding people without trials.  If you CAN prove deadly intent, then do so.  As for soldiers in foriegn countries committing crimes go, I think it should be OUR responsibility to disipline any of our troops that get out of line.  They are under US military command, and we should deal with any crimes they commit.  Harshly!
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Offline Solnath

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2007, 11:54:14 AM »
Quote from: Romanar on April 21, 2007, 11:46:59 AM
I agree with you on that point.  Prisons are supposed to be for two purposes, punishment and rehabilitation.  Putting a hardened killer in a cushy room to read magazines doesn't do either, and if a prisoner is beyond rehabilitation, he should get the death penalty.

This raises the question, who gets to decide who is beyond rehabilitation?
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Offline The Empire

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2007, 02:10:35 PM »
If your troops are causing trouble where they don't belong(eg. outside the borders of US proper), why should the local authorities hand over punishment to you? It's their civilians that has been subjected to the crimes, why should they settle with letting you holding a trial that might be biased in favour of the criminals?
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2007, 03:47:38 PM »
Because, all military personnel are held under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If one were to study it, one would find it much harsher than any civilian laws than places where the US has military bases.
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When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.

Offline The Empire

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2007, 04:02:03 PM »
And why does the US have military bases abroad at all? The cold war is over.
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Offline Ryazania

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2007, 04:09:29 PM »
Because.......it can? Hell, I don't make the goddamn decisions. If the US wants 'power projection', let them have it.
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Economic Left/Right: 9.65
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.37

Proud Constitutionalist

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

Tyrants from Hitler to Mao to Stalin have sought to disarm their own citizens, for the simple reason that unarmed people are easier to control.

Offline The Empire

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Re: Just another political arguing thread
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007, 04:45:28 PM »
If that ain't arrogant beyond acceptable I don't know what is...
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