Taijitu
Forum Meta => Archive => General Discussion Archive => Topic started by: Myroria on May 30, 2007, 11:13:22 AM
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Chavez shuts down dissentist TV network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCTV#Shut_down)
I noticed many liberals recently, perhaps some here, perhaps not, have a knack for prefering Chavez to Bush. Well, Chavez just restricted the tenet of freedom of speech. The Venezuelan government claims that RCTV supported the 2002 coup attempt, but no trial has occured, and no trial will occur. I agree Bush is an idiot, but he doesn't shut down cable networks at will. I surely hope no liberal can get even more hypocritical and still support Chavez.
EDIT: Chávez says TVes will better reflect his socialist revolution, calling RCTV "a threat to the country".
"Socialist revolution". Isn't that what Stalin called it?
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Too bad Chavez just happens to be cooler than all of the US.
Go Venezuela! Viva la revolucion socialista!
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Are we talking actual liberals here or is this the usual American right-wing thing of saying "anyone who is stupid will be labelled 'liberal'"? Because liberals support individual rights, and socialism supports collective rights. Diametric opposition. Any person who claims himself to be a liberal and who supports Chavez, a self-proclaimed socialist, is quite simply an idiot.
However, what I suspect is that these are people Myroria has classified as "liberal" himself, and is using this to knock both them and liberals at the same time.
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It seems to me that many people who claim to be "liberal" are, in fact, socialist. It's not just the "right-wing" that blurs the distinction.
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Any person who claims himself to be a liberal and who supports Chavez, a self-proclaimed socialist, is quite simply an idiot.
This quote covers those people perfectly! ;D
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Well, Chaves was very promising when he came to power int the first place, now, with this restriction on free press, I am having second thoughts...
But that doesn not change the fact that I am of the rock-solid oppinion that G. W. Bush. is to this era what Attila the hun was for the middle ages....
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I'm talking about modern American liberalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_liberalism#Liberal_consensus.2C_1970_to_the_present_day), most of which is socialism/neoliberalism, Cartwrightia. When an American says "liberal", they refer to the neoliberalism present here. Some left-wingers even call themselves liberal, knowing the meaning. Maybe in Britain it means something different, but you need to keep in mind that when I call supporters of the socialist Chavez liberal, I'm not using the wrong term. I'm not refering to classical liberalism, which is slightly different than libertarianism, but neoliberalism, which is indeed, socialist/Keynesian.
And again, I don't support Bush in the slightest, but it annoys me when people get after him for the slightest things, then other nation's leaders completely deny natural rights and they get a little "Well, that's not so good. *continues ranting about Bush/Nixon/global warming*"
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"Socialist/Keynesian?" Damn, I must've been asleep in economics.
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When I slashed it I was comparing their similarity/strongness, not their being identical.
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Liberal is left as socialism is, but there is still a large gap in between the two. I agree, I don't like Bush, but only because he makes awful decisions and has probably made some lies to the American people. I hate the people with "Impeach Bush" bumper stickers. I always ask them, "For what?" The man hasn't done anything wrong, he's just been an idiot. Maybe it did bend the truth a little, but if you can show me proof, I will lick my own balls. Bush may have problems, but he is still my president and I respect him none-the-less, and I would definitely prefer him to a fascist, which is what Chavez is close to becoming.
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And the "patriot act" isn't the least fascistic?
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It simply eased regulations on searching. They still need a warrant to do so. Chavez just plain out said "No, you cannot renew your broadcasting permit.". He also was responsible for a massacre during the demonstrations.
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And the "patriot act" isn't the least fascistic?
America is farther from fascism than Venezuela. I do hate the patriot act. I believe that it demeans the morals and principles that this country is built upon, and when I say morals and principles I do not be liberating the world. But what is a 13 year old boy to do?
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There is a saying that I like. It goes:
"Words have the power to heal and to destroy. When words are both true and kind, they can change the world." (Confucius)
Basically, if you can't speak your mind, then there is not much you can do.
I think that in both countries, freedom of speech is fairly limited. In Venezuela it is a leagle ban, in the US, it self censorship.
Both countries have their faults, just like everywhere else.
Just my :2c:
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Oh be aware that I have constant arguments with the only republican in my class, who is probably more educated on such issues. I do speak my mind, almost everyday. What I meant was that I am only 13. Even if I do somehow organize a committee of people to try and abolish the patriot act, Congress will just look at me, laugh, and say that I am not educated in these matters, and that I should return to playing spin the bottle. There is nothing that I can do at this point in my life. Give it a few years.
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Liberal is left as socialism is, but there is still a large gap in between the two. I agree, I don't like Bush, but only because he makes awful decisions and has probably made some lies to the American people. I hate the people with "Impeach Bush" bumper stickers. I always ask them, "For what?" The man hasn't done anything wrong, he's just been an idiot. Maybe it did bend the truth a little, but if you can show me proof, I will lick my own balls. Bush may have problems, but he is still my president and I respect him none-the-less, and I would definitely prefer him to a fascist, which is what Chavez is close to becoming.
hmm perhaps impeach him for leading us into a war under false pretenses. he fucking lied about the weapons of mass destruction while not pursuing someone who is clearly dangerous such as bin ladin. sorry but lying to the public is just plain fucked up and should be grounds for his removal.
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First of all, he isn't smart enough to lie. He does what ever Cheney tells him to do. Collin Powel knew this and that's why he left office. And second of all, again find me proof. I totally agree with you, but I am afraid that that man cannot be touched.
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The cuddly panda is right. The best we can do is wait until his term runs out.
sorry but lying to the public is just plain fucked up and should be grounds for his removal.
Then you'll have to remove all politicians. They all bend the truth in order to convince people whatever they want them to believe. Generally, they're good enough at it that it goes unnoticed. Where the Bush administration tripped up is that they're shortsighted and don't consider what will happen when the public finds out. They're like the kid who lies to his parents about a class they're failing, even though the parents are going to see that report card soon. Either they overestimate the 'sheep' quality of the people, or they figure they'll cross that bridge when they come to it. Or perhaps they were simply betting on us realizing things too late to do anything about it, as has certainly been the case. Bush is too well-connected to be vulnerable, and he wasn't going to be able to do a third term anyway. Capitalism leads our government around by the nose.
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patriotism happens to be close to nationalism, which makes Empire's assumption correct in my point of view.
About the REAL on topic. Idiots are the ones that call other idiots showing one side of the coin. I support the Socialist Revolution in Venezuela, and I support most of Hugo Chavez acts. OFC i took a hit with this measure, but this was in discussion a while ago. Happens the TV station made international polemic case about this, after Hugo Chavez saying he wouldn't sign the contract. This can be viewed as an 'opression' of free speech, and/or maintaining the interests of the people towards the government, and/or the end of a news network supported by the opposition.
Doesn't that happen in the US? If i recall right, Bush's brother or cousin or whatever used FOX News or whatever to say Bush was in the lead when he was tied? Also, happens that some of the videos shown anywhere can be removed by the government? Also, how many cineasts (how you call them?) had problems with the government when picturing a dark side of US government?
plus: "Forget Chavez's oppression of freedom of speech, Bush invaded Iraq!" <- Want me to compare what's worse? Chavez just didn't renewed/signed a piece of paper, while thousands are dieing in Iraq because Bush farted away.
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The US has the FCC, an appointed body - not elected - that regulates all broadcasting, if I recall correctly.
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yes that, thank you.
:fight:
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The FCC is a far different subject then what Hugo Chavez did by just refusing an opposing news cast the right to air. Sure, I don't recall the FCC shutting down a network because its political opinions were to "radical". If I am wrong, I am wrong, but the FCC, in my knowledge monitors programming for things like cursing and pornography so children are not exposed to it.
I think what Hugo Chavez did was wrong. Maybe it was right for him, but it's not good for the future of free press in Venezuela. But hey, I guess free press is something you sacrifice when you want the government to control everything.
As for the Bush statements, I don't get what they have to do with anything.
The patriot act does have something to do with it. I really feel civil liberties and rights should not be sacrificed for anything. Americans gave up their lives to protect them. The fact that my government can monitor my phone call, sickens me. It is my right to make a private phone call to someone else. Then supporters of the act say, "Well if you got nothing to hide what do you fear? or They wont listen to your petty conversation." I have a lot to fear, that the next step they can charge people with 'treason' with just information based on a random telephone call. As far as they wont listen to my petty conversations, there is no one to keep track of if they do or not.
Then there is the worst thing, I know I would listen to peoples petty conversations if I monitored phone calls :P
And PUR, Bush should get impeached for lieing? Might as well kick out the entire White House.
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There's a difference towards children between pornography and anti-governmental broadcasting? Both traumatise, the latter one maybe even more effectively.
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patriot act means that if they suspect you of terrorism they dont need a warrent, just a guy with a hunch
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let's not drag this to the oppression of freedom of speech, he just didn't sign the piece of paper that would allow the tv station work along, their contract ended. Hugo Chavez didn't end anything, the contract did.
I do think what he have done is wrong (because it leads to oppression of freedom of speech and alot of us said) but i hope there's a greater good on this. You see? We have a similar problem here in Portugal. The majority of the press makes up stories that ends up destroying ideals. Whether they are true or not. For example, when the fire season broke out, all blame was made to the socialist government, how the heck the government has the blame for the fire season? it actually is the government that most supported the controlling of the forests and all that. See? I know few friends of mine that weren't well inside politics, end up claiming the prime-minister is a bastard when the government is one of the best we've had since the revolution. They are closing our debt, not enlarging it like former governments. Although there's alot of polemic issues about the state workers and all that. But the problem with this, is how the press handles the facts, facts that become lies and hypothetical and purely subjective. "The prime-minister is a bastard because he went to a school known for it's corruption brought to light recently." <- like...wtf? What do i even care? As long as he's a good prime-minister, he could even be cheating on his wife with secretaries under the table.
And there's how Paul Wolfovitz is a different case. I hope this last one appointed is good,his background doesn't give me much confidence. Only shows the hierarchy system in USA.
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Also, I belive US politicians passed a law not long ago that widened the "patriot act" to encompass even non-US citizens all over the world to be arrested and held without trial for indefinate amounts of time on suspicions of "terrorist activities" regardless of current location... That if anything is a HUGE show of arrogance on the part of the US government...
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Wow, I never knew they did that.
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Well, what do you think Gitmo is used for and why those held there are refused civilian courts?
Because they shouldn't be there in the first place! duh...
The place IS a CONCENTRATION CAMP, more or less exactly like the german ones between 1938 and until the "final sollution" was commenced.
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geez, ok: Guantanamo goes against any policy, people there do not have the right to fair trial, people there are tortured, people there sit 5years or more for a trial (what do they do with spare time? getting spank?), there is violation of human rights all the way. This brings the illegal CIA prisons issue. But i thought we were discussing differences...oh yes, differences. Could you light up violations of human rights in Venezuela?
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Before or during Chavez?
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well, this is supposed to be Chavez vs Bush, but bring whatever you want.
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I know too little about Venezuela to make any such statement, All I know is that it's a poor south american nation with lots of undeveloped resources ant that's not particularily stable, just like most Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch ex-colonies.
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well, this is supposed to be Chavez vs Bush, but bring whatever you want.
The I will vote abstain.
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maybe poor comparing to USA, i guess Venezuela is richer than Portugal. Don't forget there's alot of oil exploration in Venezuela. I don't know what's the standings between Venezuela and USA, but Venezuela is not that poor.
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America is pissed at Venezuela because they are run by a moderately left wing popular government that was elected and won't do what the US tells them (such as nationalizing oil to pay for improved welfare for the poor).
Seriously what Chavez has done is less extreme then what the labour government after the war did here in Britain.
The government has refused to renew the license of a TV station that when there was a coop attempt to oust the elected government, interviewed leading members of the coop, said that government supporters were shooting opposition supporters (which they weren't) and then to top it all read out a fake letter of resignation which they claimed was Chavez stepping down. Now if this happened in the US or in Britain the people running the station would probably have been arrested for treason and the station closed down on the spot.
No trials have happened because:
A. large parts of the old regime are still in power (in the courts, police, army) so there is a reasonable chance they could get off anyway.
B. Chavez is afraid of sparking a reaction from either the right or the left, he doesn't want to cause confrontation between the two as there are two end positions, either the poor and the workers carry the revolution further leaving Mencheviks like Chavez behind or the right crushes the government and their supporters like they did in chile in the 70's
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ANd just like in Chile, the Venezuelan right wing would probably not have too much problems in getting US support from the CIA or even regular special forces.
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well if it worked for pinnochet and saddam why not them....
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lol we're getting somewhere now :p
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Bush is violating the Constitution, no more, no less.
Also, while Chavez has successfully portrayed himself as a socialist, please note that the Socialist International Alliance, the union of many socialist parties, endorsed his OPPONENT in the last election, and threw him out of the Alliance for simply taking all the money from white rich people and giving it to Mestizo rich people.
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they say the Portuguese community in Venezuela is safe, so I'm quite pleased.
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he is a kind of socialist, the problem being he's a menchavik at best
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Delfos, Venezuela is actually poorer than Portugal. Venezuela is ranked 52nd in the world for GDP, and Portugal is ranked 34th in the world. Venezuela does have a larger GDP growth, but inflation is way up there at 20.4%. Venezuela also suffers from 39% of it's people below the poverty line!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela)
Here is Portugal to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Portugal)
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I love Venezuela! This is why I only buy gas from 7/11 because 7/11 uses Venezuelan gas!!! Freakin' Sweet!
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Of course the main reason the Americans are freaking out is due to the fact that they get over 2/3rds of their oil from Venezuela
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bingo!
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well someone had to bring up the dreaded word oil...
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My personal opinion is that the US is far too dependent on oil. If you live in a large city, there's generally public transportation, but most people live in the suburbs or rural areas where there is little to none. Where I live, there is NO public transportation at all. It's a 20 minute drive to the nearest grocery store, 30 minutes to the closest hospital, 45 minutes to the local police department.
Not only does every family have to drive everywhere, but we have to have TWO cars, since most married couples don't work at the same place and not necessarily even the same shifts. Not to mention the teens who have their own cars too, who often have to be at work before their parents can be home to drive them there. It's such a common everyday thing here that people don't even think about it.
The problem with non-urban areas is that the people are so spread out. A bus system isn't feasible in my area because of the cost. If they priced the fares high enough to cover it, traveling by car would still end up being much cheaper. An example is our public school. My son's school is a 14 minute drive away. Yet he sits on a schoolbus for an hour each way, only because there's so much distance between each home that has children out here. Not every area is that bad, of course, but it's a good example of the problem.
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i can see difficulties in having a stronger and bigger public transportation in let's say New York, but it's possible.
I guess what happens to Khab's area happens everywhere in the world, but the American suburbs is filled with people. For example, my city (more like town) had installed new public transports now. Before there was no public transports beyond taxis, regional bus, and old train station of the western railway.
I bet all those ideas of big public transport nets have been shocked by oil lords.
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The suburbs here don't generally have much by way of public transport either. Some have a bus that comes twice a day - once in the morning and once in the evening, to coincide with the usual 9-5 workday. But that's only usable if a person can find a ride to the bus stops, which are few and far between, and work on the bus route, which only heads straight to the nearest sizable city. And then, it's only helpful if the person does work that shift and never has to work late. Taxis will come to the suburbs from that city sometimes, but the cost is exorbitant because of the distance they have to travel from their usual routes. Trains are generally non-existent except for a few very old freight lines - nothing for passengers. That's the way things are in the placed I've lived; I imagine it may vary a bit in places.
In NYC, they have what I'm told is a very good subway system, and taxis are commonplace. I have no idea whether busses are popular there; I hear that the traffic is terribly slow because of the congestion.
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I agree, the US is way too dependant upon oil, or at least oil from foreign countries. Too risky, ya get some yahoo like Chavez, or OPEC decides to dick us around some, and we're screwed. The sad damn thing about it, is that the US has the potential to be oil and energy sufficient. If we'd just realise our full oil production and refinement potential, and get the rest of the alternative fuel sources going, like we shoulda friggin done years ago, we'd be fine. No excuse for it.
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Your public transport systems make ours sound like it was based on personal teleporters...
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I think the nation thats handled oil the best is Norway
After oil was discovered there they used the profits to build renewable power supplies for the country so they export almost all their oil and use hardly any themselves.
Compare that to what Britains done which is to go "yay we found gas and oil now we can run on fossil fuels for ever!!!!"
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yeap, and Portuguese companies gone exploring oil somewhere else in the world while we have oil in the coast that no-one exploits (and i do like it that way).
And it's Venezuelan oil, not American, so they have the last word. Stop spending 75% of the world's oil and probably you will gonna make it after hybrid and other combusters are installed in the market :p
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meh I'm waiting for America's economy to collapse, to me it seems like we're heading for another major depression (what with whats happening to China (and so the rest of Asia) America going down and Britain seeming to follow)
On the plus side I should be able to afford a house then :drunks:
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me too. as i normally say, USA has been avoiding crashes since the 2000 as far as i know, i would dare to say since Vietnam. The longer you stay avoiding the stronger the crash will be...either mutate your economy so it doesn't crash or keep paying taxes to be spent on military invasions. I guess it's why USA haven't been really attacked yet...they are waiting...and waiting...and waiting, in the shadows. lol, who knows...
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I am one of those waiting in the shadowsn, though I doubt my wait will ever ammount to anything since I won't ever ammount the resources when I keep living life instead :P
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Britain much the same