Taijitu
Forum Meta => Archive => General Discussion Archive => Topic started by: Saletsia on March 26, 2007, 12:24:27 PM
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I found this in the net while looking for ghost stories:http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm (http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm)
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How much of this is true? It's written from the perspective of a Christian who has a vested interest in denouncing Islam. For starters, the Koran denies the divinity of Jesus. It also more or less calls Christians hypocrites because they claim to fulfill the Jewish Torah, and yet deny some of the Torah's most basic commandments and beliefs (God is not a man, worship only God, et cetera). I take the content of websites like that with a grain of salt.
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Sure, reading different propaganda pieces still though is at times interesting XD
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Of course it's interesting, but it's also a rather subjective issue. I can see the Christian side of the argument, but I also understand the Islamic side of things, as well.
The Christians tend to read into the violence of the Koran, but convieniently ignore all instances of violence in their own Bible (Canaanite genocide, for example, or Jesus saying that he came "not to bring peace, but the sword). Christians also tend to judge Muhammad according to Western European standards, while sort of ignoring the fact that 7th century Arabia isn't the same place as, say, 21st century America. Christians also like to forget the violence that Christianity has done unto others, from crusades to inquisitions to forced conversions. The legacy continues in the 21st century, with an avowed Christian, President George W. Bush, giving orders for the American military to invade and occupy two (Islamic) countries. In comparison, the Islamic religion suffers from theological and doctrinal stagnation (as does Christianity) and, like the Christianity, has a history of intolerance and violence against others, be they other Muslims, People of the Book (Jews and Christians), Hindus, et cetera. If the case is made that Muhammad was a terrorist, I'd say it's equally fair to accuse Jesus of the same. The only thing that differs in Islam is that the factionalism is less than it is in Christianity (Sunni and Shia as compared to literally thousands of denominations of Christianity).
Christians have a deep-seated set of beliefs, and Islam is a very real threat to this religion of theirs. They see over a billion people who honor the holy writings of the Jews and Christians, and who are gaining ground on them in terms of numbers. Oppositely, Islam, rightly or wrongly, feels hemmed in by the Western countries. All kinds of accusations fly back and forth and blood has been spilled and is being spilled right now. It isn't pretty.
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Islam is a religion of peace and, in fact, it's MORE peaceful than Christianity. Stupid idiots like those convieniently overlook the Crusades, and the WWII Pope's IGNORING OF ALL NAZI ATROCITIES.
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The Crusades were over a thousand years ago. I'll admit that the Muslims were more civilized than Christians THEN.
IMHO, the biggest difference between the two religions is that the Muslim nutcases are taken seriously. When a Muslim leader tells his followers to riot over a stupid cartoon, they do it! Very few Christians listen to Fred Phelps.
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I'm gonna wait for Phelps to die in a car crash then go there with a sign in the design of his that reads "God loves car accidents".
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I'm gonna wait for Phelps to die in a car crash then go there with a sign in the design of his that reads "God loves car accidents".
He's the guy who went to Matthew Shepard's funeral with a "God Hates Fags" sign, right? Or am I screwing up my religious nutcases?
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Yes. He does that in many funerals. One time he came to Maine, and some kickass guy took one of his followers' signs and broke it over his knee.
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:trout:
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Neither religion is innocent of violence. The history (and holy books) of the three Abrahamic religions is replete with scenes of holy carnage. O:-)
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sites like that are what make me more and more sure Christianity is completely bunk
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Islam is a religion of peace and, in fact, it's MORE peaceful than Christianity. Stupid idiots like those convieniently overlook the Crusades, and the WWII Pope's IGNORING OF ALL NAZI ATROCITIES.
I understand the criticism of Christianity since it surely has committed its fair part of mistakes throughout history. That example with WW2 though is not that legitimate, especially in this comparison to Islam.
Jesus saying that he came "not to bring peace, but the sword).
Any sources?
Regarding to the Westminster Borough "Church"...I myself do not even consider them as Christians...they're just a bunch of idiots with no lives to be happy about XD
sites like that are what make me more and more sure Christianity is completely bunk
believe me there are worse sites like than that :-P Oddly enough the ones with such fundamental and radical views mostly are new-age protestant communities...
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sites like that are what make me more and more sure Christianity is completely bunk
Christianity predicates itself upon concepts that aren't to be found at all in the Jewish religion. Christianity is more of a Egyptian/Greco-Roman religion than it is anything else, regardless of what the apologists say.
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sites like that are what make me more and more sure Christianity is completely bunk
Christianity predicates itself upon concepts that aren't to be found at all in the Jewish religion. Christianity is more of a Egyptian/Greco-Roman religion than it is anything else, regardless of what the apologists say.
That I highly doubt. But to each his own ;)
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That I highly doubt. But to each his own ;)
Tis true; bodily resurrection isn't found in Judaism till well into the Middle Ages (it's one of the Thirteen Principles of Faith of the medieval sage, Maimonides), but it's the cornerstone of ancient Egyptian religion (Osiris, the god of the resurrection, whose myth emerged in Egypt at least 5,000 years ago or so [well before there were any Israelites and their Torah]) and many of the Greco-Roman mystery cults (such as those of Demeter/Ceres).
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Islam is a religion of peace and, in fact, it's MORE peaceful than Christianity. Stupid idiots like those convieniently overlook the Crusades, and the WWII Pope's IGNORING OF ALL NAZI ATROCITIES.
sorry but i have to disagree. its a religion that started on warfare (check on how Mohamed gained followers). they were also a huge part of the crusades. they had conquered an empire larger than the holy roman empire. and it is written directly in the Koran (as similarly in the bible) that non-believers are to be killed outright if they do not convert.
however most modern Islamic people are pretty peaceful. and most every religion/government/race is or was highly violent at one point or another.
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Islam is a religion of peace and, in fact, it's MORE peaceful than Christianity. Stupid idiots like those convieniently overlook the Crusades, and the WWII Pope's IGNORING OF ALL NAZI ATROCITIES.
sorry but i have to disagree. its a religion that started on warfare (check on how Mohamed gained followers). they were also a huge part of the crusades. they had conquered an empire larger than the holy roman empire. and it is written directly in the Koran (as similarly in the bible) that non-believers are to be killed outright if they do not convert.
however most modern Islamic people are pretty peaceful. and most every religion/government/race is or was highly violent at one point or another.
The Quran doesn't explicitly state anywhere that non-believers should be killed. It states that worshippers of false idols are bad, but the three Abrahamic religions should be accepted. Ibadi Islam, the dominant sect in Oman, is even further accepting. People forget that for centuries conflict between Protestant and Catholic was far more intense than modern conflict between Shi'a and Sunni. People also forget there are different sects of each, such as Druzes (which aren't tehcnically a sect), Ibadi, Wahabi, soooo many...
Though Mohammed set to spread Islam by the sword, truth be told in Egypt, Israel, Iraq and Iran it was quickly accepted and spread faster than any conquering force in known history. Within 600 years it had spread from Malaysia for Spain. In Iran it was quickly accepted because people were disconnected from the dominant, corrupt priesthood of Zoroastrianism. In the rest of the middle east, people had grown discontent over strife caused in the name of Christianity, Islam was the new Christianity preaching to the poor, and that is why it spread so far so quickly. In Sicily, Spain, and France Islam tried spreading by the sword, it failed in all three cases. It also failed in northern India under the Mughal (aka Mogul) Dynasty.
If you will say that the internecine conflict between Shi'a and Sunni is a sign of discord and err in the faith, then you need to read about Arian Christianity and how its followers were systematically slaughtered by the Byzantines, or about the centuries of conflict in Germany between the protestant northern powers and the catholic south, or furthermore by the Genocides committed in West Africa in the name of God, or the slaughter of thousands of native americans, Aztec, Mayan, Inca, and natives such as the Comanche. Christianity is only 600 years younger than Islam, and yet I can associate Christianity with much more violence. However, all three Abrahamaic religions seem to embrace violence. Israel kills hundreds of people in the name of its religious state, Islam commits genocides in East Africa, and attempted to do so in Sicily, and Christianity has oppressed for centuries Jew and Muslim alike, along with systematic slaughter of pagans via crusades in the north, inquisition etc.
By my count, none of the three religions embrace love or peace, and their God is a very vindictive blood loving jealous God of hatred.
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Each religion has a different object of worship, despite the fact that it's commonly said that they all worship Abraham's God. The question might be said, is it God that they worship or their own particular opinions of God? It seems to me that this character called "God" is actually pretty blameless; he just had some things to say in a book or two. It's his worshippers who are raising all kinds of holy terror down on Planet Earth. :fight:
As to the idea that the Abrahamic God is overly violent and bloodthirsty, just how would an omnipotent being view what we humans term "good" and "evil"? I remember a passage from Heraclitus that goes something like:
"Good and evil are only human terms, and all things are beautiful to God."
That's kind of hard to swallow, but it kind of agrees with what Abraham's God said someplace in the Bible, "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil: I, God do all of these things." So, the accusation that the Abrahamic God is bloodthirsty is something that can't be denied, but it also can't be denied that the fellow has as many positive aspects, as well: "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth God require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
It's almost as if he has multiple personalities. But, an all-powerful being can't be all-powerful if he wasn't the origin of both good and evil. ???
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The Quran doesn't explicitly state anywhere that non-believers should be killed.
Have you ever read the Quran?
It states that infidels may be dragged to the markets and be sold like cattle if they refuse to convert, and they may also be killed like cattle.
Interesting book actually, especially the 23rd Sura....
When reading you cannot disregard its direct way of regarding to Christians as "infidels".
But then again each to his own ;) I wasn't planning to start any inter-religious warfare, just thought you would find the site interesting as well - be it in positive/negative way.
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No, but I have studied the Quran, and I highly doubt as a common Christian he read the verse in Arabic, you can translate the Arabic word for "unbeliever" any way you want, but in Arabic it has its own meaning all together.
It's not a general term for anyone who does not believe in Allah, as this Christian would have you believe. Mohammad also said that all Christians and Jews should be treated equally with Muslims because they were brothers of the book, and this practice can be seen by thousands of years in the Holy Land when Christians were allowed to pilgrimage, the only reason for the new hatred of Jews is the state of Israel. The Quran goes on to show you how Christians were treated equally but chose to rebel in several villages and had to be put down, which this Christian would take as an excerpt without a preface and blindly tell you Muslims kill Christians. The Christian also uses the fact that Mohammad had many wifes as a cultural "bad" despite the fact that it's part of a different culture, this man isn't just ethnocentric, he's absolutely blind to other cultures. Sex with children was justified by the name of God in the union of Aragon and Castille, when a 20-30 some odd aged man married a 8 year old girl.
The point is, if you take line and verse without context, you can actually prove that God was indeed three beings, and that he was evil, among other things. You can prove the Jew was bloodthirsty by looking at Deuteronomy and Genesis when Jews attacked the Canaanites. He is taking line and verse (translated none-the-less, which we all know can be done for your own benefit) to prove things that Islam expressly forbids in its five pillars.
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The Abrahamic religions are reflections of the times in which the writers of the various holy books lived. The Israelites were retelling the story of their violent, pastoral Bronze Age ancestors (much as the Greeks did in the form of the Homeric-styled stories, also redactions of Bronze Age persons, places, and events), the Christians were writing in response to persecution, real or imagined, from the Roman authorities (thus paranoia, intolerance, and the persecution complex were written into Christian doctrine from the earliest days), and the Arabs were emerging from tribalism and nomadic savagery when Muhammad's successors began to write down what we now call the Quran.