Concerning the mind and repentance

[Khablan]

Well, there wasn't just ten, actually.  And it seems to me that small bits used for quotes can often be taken out of context, just like in politics.  So I like to see where the quotes are coming from before I really give them any validity.

[Eientei]

I find Islam to be more compassionate, there are more doctrines focused around kindness and sharing than the Christians, there is no "sin" and God is forgiving if you are unable to do the things he asks (such as the US Army forcing Muslim prisoners to eat pork)

I think it's pretty hard to make that kind of assessment, especially when so many sects and interpretations exist within both Christianity and Islam.  I do like the Islamic idea that even the damned can and will eventually be saved by God from the fiery depths compared to the Catholic "you're screwed forever" notion.

[Solnath]

Don't forget, Catholicism = Christianity.

[Khablan]

Catholicism does not equal Christianity.  It's only one form of it.

[Eientei]

Don't forget, Catholicism = Christianity.

I know that, but Catholicism is the only form of Christianity I have a personal understanding about from family ties.  Catholicism certainly does the guilt thing best out of all the Christian sects I know of.

[Ryazania]

You obviously haven't seen much of the American South.

I can be on a road from Greenville to Fort Walton Beach and there is a sign that says ' Go to Church or the Devil Will Get You!'

[Solnath]

The Pope said they're the same thing, they're the same thing.

[Naivetry]

If you accomplish everything you want to in life, I think you lack imagination.   

I do believe the correct terms are foolish ambition and greed.

I would call it a healthy appreciation for the beauty, the wonder, and the opportunities of life.  If it's foolish to take delight in flowers, or to want to climb a mountain just because it's there, or to imagine what it would be like to dive through a cloud, call me a hopeless fool. 

So, if you know you'll never accomplish everything you want in life Naivetry, what's the point? I prefer to have a simpler view of life, it doesn't need to be very complex for me to be happy.

I agree - complexity for me hinders happiness.  But that's not what I'm saying at all.  I feel sorry for someone who, at the end of the day, says that life holds nothing more for them.  It is a good thing - it probably the best human thing - to be satisfied and happy with the life you have lived; it is another to say that life had nothing more to offer.  Maybe an example.  It's perfectly alright with me if I never learn to surf; I will not be lying on my deathbed wishing someone had taught me how.  But if I ever said that learning to surf is not worthwhile, I would be closed-mindedly stunting my own ability to appreciate every aspect of existence.  And that's what I mean by a lack of imagination.

I suspect that life's not through with us when we get to heaven.  Heaven's just a name for the reality God lives in - the reality that we pray comes to earth ("Thy kingdom come...").  Heaven is not the end of the story.  It's just the beginning of the real adventure.

A beginning that lasts for eternity. It really does sound adventorturous like the Never-Ending Story.

A never-ending beginning is an oxymoron.  You can't actually begin anything if you're never done with the beginning.  Would it help if I called death the beginning, and heaven the real adventure?

Many of Christianity's moral codes defy rational thought.

Point me to some.

You've misstated the 10 Commandments by turning #10 into two, and left out #2. See text with commentary.

1) I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.
2) You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water below.
3) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day to set it apart as holy.  For six days you may labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your male servant, or your female servant, or your cattle, or the resident foreigner who is in your gates.
5) Honor your father and your mother, that you may live a long time in the land the Lord your God is giving to you.
6) You shall not murder.
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8.) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.

All of these are rooted in plain, rational observations about human nature - even the first three, if you begin with the assumption that God exists.  Your commentary is not an argument against that basic rationality.  I can either explain how everything is rational at great and boring length, or you can ask me about any you have problems with.  Sound good? 

Khab, religious codes shouldn't be completely intertwined so that you have to read everything to understand a bit. The Ten Commandments are possibly the most common ones that are quoted from the Bible directly and the story surrounding it is just filler compared to them.

That intertwining is called history and reason.  It's much easier to criticize something that's historically arbitrary and illogical, so I can see why you might prefer it.    But "a text without a context is a pretext."  If you're going to criticize something, you should criticize what it actually is, and not a strawman.  I won't defend a strawman - it's as much my enemy as yours.

RE: Islam
I don't know nearly as much about Islam as I would like, but I do respect it (and Judaism) a great deal; all three are in the same Abrahamic tradition.  I've never met someone both knowledgable and willing to debate the theological differences and merits of Islam or Judaism as compared and contrasted with Christianity, however, so most of what I see are the things about Christianity that are lacking in Islam or Judaism, rather than the other way around.  That bit about hell in Islam, for instance, is interesting for that reason.

[Solnath]

I actually didn't misstate the Ten Commandments, I just used the ones provided by the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

Plain, rational observations? That just doesn't seem to fit in, I'm afraid, considering that greed is an integral part of humanity and many of the commandments deny the right to practice that.

[Trey]

It just seems to me that Commandment #10 and Commandment #4 are going to be broken no matter what.

[Talmann]

Xy- on dissing the government for breaking #6, there's a little thing in the Constitution called Seperation of Church and State.

And I see no reason why we should follow some "laws" laid out by "God", especially if you don't worship that "God" at all. The Commandments make rational sense, yes, but I wouldn't follow them just because "God" told me to.

[Naivetry]

I actually didn't misstate the Ten Commandments, I just used the ones provided by the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

*peruses wikipedia*  Well, that doesn't make any sense.    I think the Anglican, Reformed, and other Protestants have this one right.

Plain, rational observations? That just doesn't seem to fit in, I'm afraid, considering that greed is an integral part of humanity and many of the commandments deny the right to practice that.

It's based on plain, rational observations that unrestrained greed, for example, harms people.  There are 2 out of the 10 commandments as I count them (or 3 as you do, but not "many") that might restrain one's greed (#8 and #10 in my numbering) and they both deal with not wanting stuff that belongs to someone else.  And that's just common sense for how to run a marginally peaceful society, no matter what Ayn Rand may tell you.

It just seems to me that Commandment #10 and Commandment #4 are going to be broken no matter what.

Not necessarily.  Sure, every teenager has spats with Mom and Dad, but you can still respect them at the end of the day.  And coveting isn't just saying to your neighbor, "Ooh, you have a Wii, I want one of those" - it's wanting his Wii, or his wife, or whatever... not in idle fancy or even in serious bargaining, but with malicious intent. 

And furthermore, the value of a moral ideal isn't dependent on whether or not we can meet it.  Christianity recognizes that the law - such as the 10 Commandments - often just points out to us where we've gone wrong.  That's why we emphasize God's love and grace, and our faith in response expressed in works, as the means to salvation, rather than some lifelong, flawless execution of the letter of the law.

And I see no reason why we should follow some "laws" laid out by "God", especially if you don't worship that "God" at all. The Commandments make rational sense, yes, but I wouldn't follow them just because "God" told me to.

And certainly I would never ask you to.  Follow them because they're rational - that's why, having grown out of the Sunday school explanations, I still do - and still would, even if I didn't also believe they are rational because instated for a rational world by a rational God.  But for people unable or disinclined to pursue rational, as opposed to merely selfish, lines of moral reasoning, the 10 Commandments give a very summary outline of and training in some basic, rational, moral findings.  For those in every age who refuse to listen to simple reason...

[Solnath]

So they're negotiable, rather than literal.

[Naivetry]

"Negotiable" isn't the word I would use - that brings to mind other words, like "optional." 

But no, they're certainly not "literal."  Nothing can be literal, because language itself is symbol.

[Trey]

But isn't the whole point that you're supposed to follow them practically to the letter?