Taijitu
Forum Meta => Archive => General Discussion Archive => Topic started by: Myroria on April 16, 2007, 08:31:43 PM
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At least 31 people are dead and several others wounded after a gunman opened fire at a Virginia college on Monday in what is being described as the worst campus shooting in U.S. history, according to government officials.
(http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/04/16/virg-1-shoot-cp-2804730.jpg)
An injured person is carried out of Norris Hall, where most of the fatalities occurred. 'At least 30 to 40 big shots' were fired in the engineering building, a student said.
(Alan Kim/Roanoke Times/Associated Press) The suspected gunman was among the dead at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, a town with a population of 39,573, campus police Chief W.R. Flinchum told a news conference at noon.
Police said they weren't immediately sure whether the gunman was a student, or whether he killed himself or was shot by police.
By about 2 p.m. ET, some U.S. broadcasters were reporting that a number of wounded people had died of their injuries.
"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," university president Charles Steger said. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."
32 people dead. The deadliest civilian shooting in US history, surpassing both the Luby's Massacre and Columbine. Thoughts? Comments?
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Well, I really don't know what to say, the incredible thing is that these massacres continue to happen and every time there are big discussions and talks, and after a month is the same. I don't live in US, nor I ever travel there, but it's clear that there's a problem, I don't know if somebody is doing something, from what I see maybe not.
I've got the feeling that the guilt is always given to the shooter, not to the society. I mean, the shooter IS guilty, but you can examine his situation, his story, when a thing like this happens one time, but when it happens almost sistematically it's clear that the person is not the problem, he surely got some problems, but there is a situation in which his problems can grow and find a tragical epilogue.
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My heart goes out to the families of those who were killed. I feel so awful for them. What would be worse, though, is if people use this incident as a political weapon. It's hard to say what policies would prevent this, and it's darn near impossible to find the root cause. I think part of it has to do with America's culture of independence, so people never go for guidance or help or anything. They just brood, and it turns into this.
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It really hits home, a crazy gunman can show up out of nowhere and shoot 30+ people... it's terrifying.
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It sure is! :(
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Yay, more Americans dead! Go Gaia!
/me runs off to smoke weed and hug trees.
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I'd say guns and ammo beeing so readily accessible in the US definitely has something to do with the reason why theese violent tragedies become so massive. A lack of effective, secular aid for mental problems to compliment medicine could als be a contributing factor.
Not to mention the blame-attitude that is showing through with many americans I have met over the web, It's always somebody elses fault and they themselves can never be part of a bigger problem...
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Wow 32 people dead! There are far too many crazy people with guns! I was on MSNBC.com checking up on this story and came across this link there.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18140540/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18140540/) I didn't even know about some of these! America definitely needs better gun control!
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Sad! What a massacre! How the hell did they react that sloppy? I understand that there were ~ 2h between the first shooting and the bloody end, could have limited it to only two victims...i heard a freshman speaking on abc news.
Seems that the teacher who held the door shut for his class to jump out the window and save themselves was Liviu Librescu, of Romanian origin. aged 77. Sad moment, but my respect for his sacrifice. I'm really happy that no Romanian politician has yet made any comment on this, his memory should be kept clean. Bleah, couldn't we import such a lunatic and let him go loose in the Romanian Parliament?
Have they disclosed his identity yet?
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They have just identified the shooter to be Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior from South Korea. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/)
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So what do you think could be done to efficiently prevent it from happening again?
And Garth, a personal question, why do you care about this at all? I thought you said in a neighboring topic by Solnath that you don't care about violence that doesn't happen to you personally, your family or your friends?
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He had a school-visa, he didn't even plan to be a citizen. That means he obtained all ammo and weapons illegally. Plus, had more students had firearms, they would have been able to shoot him before he killed so many.
A lack of effective, secular aid for mental problems to compliment medicine could als be a contributing factor.
He was on anti-depressants.
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So, anti-depressants on their own is no solution...
And try this thought for a while, if there was a lot less total number of guns in the US it would have been much harder for him to get one or ammo for it/them and the same for all other guns used in your nation each day.
That in turn would result in several thousands of fewer murders annually. And though the number of lesser violent crimes would probably increase by roughly the same amount wouldn't that be a very advantageous trade off?
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I am fairly sure that if all firearms present in the US were registered, there would be a lot less crime. Most shootings occur with illegal/unregistered guns . Plus, my Constitution allows me to arm myself against tryanny :)
But on to the subject at hand, this is really awful. I can't imagine why there were so many students killed when so many could have been saved. Dr. Libescru, as Gunner mentioned before, is a real hero. Had he not sacrificed himself, the number of students killed would have gone up dramatically.
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Still, those illegal/unregistered guns are produced in the same factories as legal guns or was stolen from a legal owner right, and if there had been less guns produced, the availiablitiy of illegal guns waould have suffered too and along with that their prices would have soared and had been less common as a result, all according to the nature of capitalism albeit capitalism restricted at the supply source.
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Sorry, can't see myself pissing on my Consitution :shrug:
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Now, that got me thinking, why do you hold so much reverence for a piece of paper with rules written more than 200 years ago?
If anything, questioning the validity of parts of that document is only a proof of a sound mind and holding it as holy by it's own virtue is just as stupid as interpreting the bible litterally and following it without thought.
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That 200 year old piece of paper is the Supreme Law of the land, and much of what's wrong with this country is the leadership's failure to follow it. If there ARE parts of it that need changing (and I disagree that the 2nd Amendment needs changing), we have procedures to amend it. Barring that, outlawing guns is illegal (and useless in this country).
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Let it go, Emp. Logic can't win religion.
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I know, and I never said it was bad, I belive most of it is really good. I am just appalled at the rabid fanaticism the yanks call "patriotism" it's hurting them more than it helps...
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I agree, most of us are aware what nationalists can unleash upon the rest of the world.
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Honestly, I'm getting really tired of the "LOL ALL AMERZICANS ARE BUSHIES LOL" argument. You know we're not all like that. So just stop making assumptions, ok?
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Noone has said that Garth, so now it's you who are making assumptions, that door swings both ways you know...
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And Garth, a personal question, why do you care about this at all? I thought you said in a neighboring topic by Solnath that you don't care about violence that doesn't happen to you personally, your family or your friends?
You know I was exaggerating. I care, but not as much as other people. It's not like I'm mourning for them or anything.
And, like Ryazania said, if all guns had to be registered but they were compulsory, there'd be way less crime. And if some crazy person shot someone for no reason, it's not like it's any hard to convict him of murder (at which point he should be executed, someone who kills someone doesn't deserve to live)
I am just appalled at the rabid fanaticism the yanks call "patriotism" it's hurting them more than it helps...
You're making an assumption about all "yanks" (Which is a horrid term, by the way).
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Okay, I think we all agree there is a definite... shadow of rabid nationalism hanging over the U.S. but also that not all Americans are like that.
Either way, it seems a little disrespectful to take a conversation about a tragedy and turn it into an argument about who is and isn't an asshole in the stage of world politics, so let's not.
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And, like Ryazania said, if all guns had to be registered but they were compulsory, there'd be way less crime. And if some crazy person shot someone for no reason, it's not like it's any hard to convict him of murder (at which point he should be executed, someone who kills someone doesn't deserve to live)
An eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind.
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Gandhi quote, eh? Well, the world cannot be "blind" since not everyone commits a murder.
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Gandhi? I actually heard that from an... "erotic thriller." :-P
Not yet, but it would escalate to that if self-control was given a week off.
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I think it's pretty grotesque that there is almost a league table of these shootings....and that to get to the top you have to kill larger and larger numbers of people.....
And all to become a posthemous(sic) celebrity.....
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It is pretty sick, indeed. These kinds of events make it really difficult to keep any kind of faith in humanity's good nature.
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And, like Ryazania said, if all guns had to be registered but they were compulsory, there'd be way less crime. And if some crazy person shot someone for no reason, it's not like it's any hard to convict him of murder (at which point he should be executed, someone who kills someone doesn't deserve to live)
You talk about the second amendment giving you protection from state tyranny, then hand the state power to kill people. The only countries which execute as many people as the United States in a year are China, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Congo. Are you proud of that little group of equals, Garth?
The problem goes deeper than gun control. As much as I dislike Michael Moore, he had a point when he points to the murder rate in Canada against the proportion of population which has a weapon (Much, much lower than the US in the first case, equal or higher than the US in the latter). However, gun control would have made this a lot more difficult. He may have had the arms illegally, but in a country which is awash with weaponry, where you can buy an automatic weapon younger than you can buy a beer, it isn't surprising that he got hold of them.
It's absurd to suggest that students should have had more access to weapons, so that they would be safer. How about setting up a society in which you don't even have to consider going to lectures with a handgun under your jacket?
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" An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. "
Robert A. Heinlein
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Yes, I think all:
Rapists
Murderers
Child molesters
Should be executed. So yes, I do think they've got the right thing going.
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Terrible, they shall be in my prayers.
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" An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. "
Robert A. Heinlein
Because I meet so many polite Americans.. Mind you I have met some really awesome people from America, but I've also met my share of nit-wits and asses, and the polite do not seem to be the majority.
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Yes, I think all:
Rapists
Murderers
Child molesters
Should be executed. So yes, I do think they've got the right thing going.
Yes, murder the murderers! No second chances! Forget the American Dream!
Also, Heinlein, as you well should be aware of, changed his opinions from time to time and armament doesn't necessarily mean guns. Martial artists are at least here considered armed even when fighting without weapons.
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I agree with Myro on the rapist/murderer/molester thing. And @ Sol- Yeah, we pretty much hate that part of society stupid enough to kill someone else when it's not part of their job. Survival of the smartest, baby.
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It shouldn't be a part of anyone's job.
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And one can't give away anything one doesn't have. Thus one can't delegate killing as one doesn't have any right to take life one self.
Not morally or ethically speaking anyway, and if anyone tries anyway they have no right to complain when they themselves face the consequences.
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I meant killing as a job as in a SOLDIER. I didn't want to go into it because I knew it would be turned into something I didn't mean.
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Soldier's jobs aren't to kill, if they are forced to kill they have already failed.
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Soldier's jobs aren't to kill, if they are forced to kill they have already failed.
Thank you SO MUCH for saying that! God, so many people think otherwise (very sadly including many in top military positions around the world) it makes me wonder if the human race really is insane and/or doomed after all.
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Well, that view is why Swedish forces has such a good reputation in international operations. Most Swedish soldiers in foreign theatres are older than those of other involved nations and has a civilian background as Sweden doesn't have any professional troops. That also means that Swedish troops are less likely to be the cause of or to escalate hostile situations and also less likely to follow illegal orders. Most Swedish UN-veterans who has been forced to use their weapons has expressed feeling that to be sad failures. Some might view that as a sign of weakness but it's rather the opposite.
And those times Swedish troops has been involved in firefights they have come out on top with flying colors.
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" An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. "
Robert A. Heinlein
Because I meet so many polite Americans.. Mind you I have met some really awesome people from America, but I've also met my share of nit-wits and asses, and the polite do not seem to be the majority.
LOL. Most people I know (other than backwood hicks who can make a bomb out of a potato and shoe lace) don't even have guns in their house, let alone on their person. And I'm willing to bet that you visited New England or California, yes? If that is the case, please do not judge Americans by those regions .That quote also reminded me of something from a Conan novel.....hmm.....
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls splot, as a general thing
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cmon we all know that on the whole Americans are ignorant, depressed, and armed to the teeth. the worlds got us pegged for who we really are. yes there are those pleasant exceptions to that fact such as intelligent young chaps like you and me, but that's not what this country is comprised of...I'm not surprised in the least that these shootings have sprung up all over. if you take a tour of this nations schools and surrounding communities, its not hard to see how something like this could happen.
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Soldier's jobs aren't to kill, if they are forced to kill they have already failed.
Tell that to the United States Marine Corps.
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Well, most of them are probably too stupid to understand it anyway...
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Hehehehehe.
Marines aren't paid to think, but to do.
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And that's the one MAJOR flaw of professional armies
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At least I'm not forced to do any service. I don't recall that anyone has a higher right to my time and work other than myself.
That is the BIGGEST flaw of a conscription army.
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That's only a flaw to someone who is so cowardly that they aren't prepared to fight personally for what they belive in and so selfish they pay others to do their dirty work.
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My french teacher went to Virgina Tech, and she was freaking out all last week. Since she was french major, and the french class got annihilated, she's been saying that if she was there 10 years ago, she would be dead. Pretty freaky.
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Can certainly understand that Alger :S
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That's only a flaw to someone who is so cowardly that they aren't prepared to fight personally for what they belive in and so selfish they pay others to do their dirty work.
Don't you dare call me a fucking coward. I am referring to the fact that compulsory military service is basically the government saying that have a higher priority to your life than you do.
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If my government ever tried to force me into the army, I will work to remove the government
end of discussion for me
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Can certainly understand that Alger :S
I know. I feel bad for her.
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Well, most of them are probably too stupid to understand it anyway...
Don't you fucking DARE insult the USMC. Most of my relatives were in it, and none of them are stupid. I'm tired of your bitching. Don't critisize us for being inpolite when you insult an entire army. You were in one, you're only insulting yourself.
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Hello. Sorry, haven't been here for long yet, but, well, thought it would be best to just jump right in.
Being an American, I have to say that anyone who badmouths the Constitution is asking for it. The United States is the only nation in the world ruled by a piece of paper, and we're proud of it. Granted, the current leaders ignore it, but, well, if they try and stay past their two-term limit, well, then, that's what the second amendment is for, nu?
The second amendment to the US constitution is very important to our continued liberty and security. Granted, every wacko and his cousin should not be able to get a gun, that is what gun restrictions are for. However, the government having all the guns is not acceptable. We have to be able to revolt in a case where our liberties are being revoked and destroyed. The right of revolution is practically guaranteed by the second amendment, and that is very important. Look at all of these nations that have banned guns, nations with forms of government similar to the United States. All of them have lost democracy. Every single one.
Now, European-style democracies, they don't have as much of a need for an armed population, as the executive is far less powerful in most democracies. However, the very nature of the executive power in the United States implies that, if it is abused greatly, we must be able to eliminate it. From the nation's own founding document:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
The Unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
Thomas Jefferson, 4 July 1776
Therefore, the second amendment is necessary. However, gun control laws are also necessary. For example, the gunman in this case had been classified a "danger to himself and others". Such should merit the confiscation of any owned firearms and the preventing of him from buying them. He bought the gun illegally, however. Therefore, illegal guns must be cracked down upon. How?
My proposal would be that every gun is printed with an individual ID code right out of the factory. Also, to require that all gun owners be of adult age, and that all gun owners pass a psychological examination before being permitted to own a gun.
Well, there's my rant.
Thanks for reading.
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You words are so wise. I respect the way you stand up for our country.
Remember the true enemy of the USA is not Muslims, it has been and always will be communists. F*ck commies.
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Actually, communism is an ultimate ideal which actually fits the United States in many ways. It's just the ultimate ideal has never been realized. And, government owning the means of production and all the land is anti-American, but otherwise, a generally good idea. It's implementation always sucks though. So, Communism = Alright. Communists = bad.
I myself am not represented by either political party. I'm for private ownership of property, but government regulation. I'm in favor of government-sponsored pensions, and government-sponsored health care (though not all government-owned and operated like in some countries). I'm against the use of military force until all other options have been utilized. I'm against the government screwing with privacy rights and being in the bedroom, and I'm against security cameras watching everywhere. I'm for gun control, but not for gun bans. I'm against the death penalty in most cases (there are some mean, evil sons of guns that deserve death, but far fewer than actually receive the death penalty). I'm in favor of a strong, all-volunteer, modern military, that does not use state militias in foreign conflict. I'm in favor of welfare for those who have honestly lost their jobs and can't get new ones.
So, in general, I'm against the Bush Administration on almost every single solitary issue.
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I just read through this whole topic for the first time.... How did I just know that some European bastards were going to turn such a terrible tragedy into an excuse for another anti-US political rant? Absolutely pathetic.
Empire, you seemed like a decent, intelligent guy. However, when you repeatedly call my nation, THE United States of America, barbaric, power-hungry, ignorant, and God knows what else, I just got two words for you: fuck off.
Then you go on to call others cowards for stating their beliefs: that compulsory military service is a form of intrusion upon an individual's inalienable rights. I agree with Ryaz in this. You sound really dense here, Emp. First you said that the members of a professional army were ignorant, especially those who 'do, and don't think.' Then you call any person unwilling to support a conscription-based army a coward. You can't have it both ways. So make up your mind, before you throw insults. In my opinion, the truly ignorant people is the one that will give their government such absolute power as to allow the government to use them in any war of its own choosing.
And then, you were so low as to insult the United States Marine Corps. The Corps is the most hallowed group of men (and women) that ever fought in the name of freedom, and can kick the shit out of any army on this planet, nevermind your own country you're constantly reffering to (sorry, is it Switerzerland or Sweden?). If you want to be a sissy socialist, support conscription-armies, insult the USMC and the United States of America, boast about your pathetic Swedish army (or Swiss?), and all in a topic that was created to discuss a tragic murder that involved my countrymen, you're nothing more than scum in my eyes. Typical European. Somebody brought up WWI and WWII... (someone said that the US wasn't really involved in WWI... that somebody needs to go back to school and learn to read- the US suffered 300,000 casualties in that war, all good men who went to fight for an ideal, not because they had to). That's the root of all this resentment I'm seeing, isn't it? You babies are all mad that the US had to fight your wars for you, and win them for you (however I completely exempt England from this- if there are any Brits here, I got nothing but love for you and your country, and all you've done for the world). It becomes obvious to me, when I see you on one hand say that the US is 'selfish and cowardly' because we didn't jump into WWII from day one. And then you tell us to stay home, leave our bases in Europe and Asia, and stop trying to be "world police." I think Empire said that if N. Korea did cross the 38th parralell, it wouldn't be any of our concern anyway. Well, yeah, just like HITLER was none of our concern, RIGHT? I mean, the V-rockets didn't reach the East Coast, why on earth would we want to go help you? And you can say that we didn't join until Pearl Harbor, but in reality, the Lend-Lease Act was basically a premature declaration or war. We had already thrown our lot in with the Allies (or what was left of them). But there were still alot of people in the US that thought like Empire does: they didn't want us to be 'world police.' It wasn't any of our concern anyway, right? Yeah.... Typical, short-sighted, hypocritical, ingrateful Europeans.
And to get back to the topic at hand, (the intended one) I feel horribly for those affected by the Virginia Tech murders. I'm also disgusted with those who seek to use it as a political tool. Allama, you had a couple dark posts questioning the "good nature" in Man-kind. Well, all I can say is that even in the darkest of times, there are instances of heroism. Namely, in this case, Liviu Librescu. This guy acted in truly heroic fashion, and he has all of my respect and admiration.
Again, my heart goes out to the families and friends of the victims, and I hope that these people will be able to soon heal from this terrible hurt.
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Damn this is the rant thread of the century. Barc, i completly agree with your statement apart from what you say in your middle paragraph about America is like a world police and they how the "US had to fight your wars for you, and win them for you". How more freaking uneducated and right wing can you get? In all the real wars, WWI and II, America was provoked into them. We didn't fight them for anyone but ourselves and to shut-down Germany. Before that we were provoked by the Spanish, the Mexican, the South, the British, and the British again. After the War, we were provoked by communism, and communism again, oil, a plane and a tower, and now invisible WMDs. But apart from I agree with your entire statement.
To New History:
Actually, communism is an ultimate ideal which actually fits the United States in many ways. It's just the ultimate ideal has never been realized. And, government owning the means of production and all the land is anti-American, but otherwise, a generally good idea. It's implementation always sucks though. So, Communism = Alright. Communists = bad.
Exactly. On paper it is about the most sexy form of government possible, but when you put it to the test.....um not so much. Personally I think Trotsky was a genius. Just under appreciated.
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lol i must say this is all pathetic. 1st you cant say the USMC can beat any other army, i bet the red army can beat the hell of any other army in the world. anyway for example, the Portuguese army and all the other special forces are known to be one of the best peace keeping forces in the world, can the USMC do that? no way lol, we also have great engineers, guess whose engineers are rebuilding Lebanon after the crap Israel did there? can the USMC do that? no ofc not, they even support Israel on bombing innocents. and so on.
i already written a post for this topic but somehow i erased by accident and didn't wanna write all over again, but seems people are pushing it. Columbine will happen over and over, the problems existent there are existent now, and what happened in Virginia is the proof of that. When you give up the damn pride of your 2nd amendment and start doing some social work this stuff will decrease hard! i cant believe people havent figured out why this things happen, why USA has the most mortality of firearms in the world. Why instead of solving your problems you just let it be like justifying the fact that this things happen to enforce the problem. Look at what iv written and see if it's not all those things you say you dont us to call you..
whats up with the commies? poor guys, why are they bad? americans are bad too, as i said they support and enforce slaughter, where? middle east, when? in the past, now, and if this keeps going, probably will continue till americans leave middle east. why? they are just mean, they think theire army is the best in the world. no you'r a world's potency..why? because you have all those army men..why else? hmph..cant find any other reason..maybe potency of consuming petrol, do you know USA consumes 75% of the world's petrol? amasing... the whole world lives happy with 25% of this, while USA consumes 3 quarters of it..wtf something must be wrong here! you'r the man in petrol! your economy is so based on petrol that any hit on it can generate crashes, but it's amasing how USA avoided several crashes in the past times making wars. lets shed blood not our dear petrol!
EU is fine thanks for asking, we'r the man in environmentalism, even if it shakes our economy, at least we live in a better and free world and we'r free of guilt. now go pollute a bit more so there can be more tornadoes over there.
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OTHER THREAD. NOW.
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That's only a flaw to someone who is so cowardly that they aren't prepared to fight personally for what they belive in and so selfish they pay others to do their dirty work.
I have to disagree with you on that, very strongly. Not everyone agrees with their government's stances and whatnot, or with how their military is used. If they tried to conscript me into the U.S. army (assuming women were eligible for draft here, that is) I would fight it, not wanting to become a part of a body trained to follow orders I don't support. If they refused to grant "conscientious objector" status and attempted to ship me out anyway I would choose to serve jail time rather than capitulate. I don't see refusal to go along with something you think is morally wrong as selfishness or cowardice; I think it's quite the opposite.
Also: ouch.
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I personally think the Roman army was the greatest fighting force ever, with the US the greatest modern one.
The Red Army just has a bunch of people in it. Their tactics are "swarm them with tanks, we can win!"
No offense, but Portugal doesn't really do anything. It's true. Sure, I bet Portugal's army is great, but it's just that they don't really choose to project power.
And if the second amendment got repealed, I would move to a more libertarian country, honestly. You can't murder someone if they have a gun too. If gun ownership was compulsory and we did register them still, those students would be kicking the shit outta that kid!Bang! Bang! DEAD!
...And pollution doesn't cause tornadoes. The mix of warm and cold air does. Besides, we're the dominant species of Earth for a reason. It's inevitable that Earth will become an ecumenopolis eventually; it's in our best interest. If the animals die, big deal. They're animals, we don't need them, we have synthetic stuff anyway.
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I could almost say you're kidding, Myro. The last two paragraphs are comedy gold.
Oh yeah, and don't forget:
OTHER THREAD. NOW.
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Allama, you had a couple dark posts questioning the "good nature" in Man-kind. Well, all I can say is that even in the darkest of times, there are instances of heroism. Namely, in this case, Liviu Librescu. This guy acted in truly heroic fashion, and he has all of my respect and admiration.
I believe in the good nature of humanity quite wholeheartedly; it's just that grand examples of human hatred makes it difficult on occasion. Deep down, I think all people have the potential to do great good or great evil. What makes me think this indicates good nature is that almost all people are happier and more satisfied in their deepest, most secret heart when they live a life of kindness and self-sacrifice. The more you do for others, the more truly you realize that who you are is wonderful and this leads to a deep sense of worth and joy you cannot find when you hate and rage.
Librescu is a perfect example of what helps me keep true to my philosophy.
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I think this thread has so veered off topic it may be an idea to lock it and let some people have a time out and take a few deep breaths.....
Dai....
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bang bang bang die! well we favor life, we don't like dead people, so we don't like guns that kill people..or is that people that kill people? or is that people with guns that kill people? anyway, everyone has the right to live, even if they are criminals, thats why we dont have death penalty nor shoot people for breaking the law. thats libertarian for me, for you if to be free to kill, for me is to be free to live.
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Remember the true enemy of the USA is not Muslims, it has been and always will be communists. F*ck commies.
The only good thing that has been said in this thread. The rest is mindless stereotyping, jingoistic nationalism based on false claims (The USA is not the only country in the world ruled by a Constitution), and general asshattery.
I'm staying out of it.
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Delfos, you are in NO WAY a libertarian. You are completely and totally socialist-liberal. Libertarians, most at least, believe wholeheartedly in the death penalty. If you were attacked you WOULD strike back. Don't even SAY you wouldn't. It's human nature, much as in a life-and-death situation, you'd eat a dead person, even if you say "No I wouldn't", YES YOU WOULD. It's the same deal with the death penalty. How many murders were there in the ancient world, where many thought of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"? Few, compared to today. If murder got you the death penalty, there's a whole lot more to make you not do it again than life in prison, which even now is getting shortened to 25-60 years some places. The world's gone all to hell since liberalism. It really makes me sad.
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well try to get a definition of libertanian, if there says they belive in death penalty then you must be right. still if you think the libertanians can kill because they are free...hmm maybe you'r right, libertanians suck! lets jail all libertanians before they kill anyone else!
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...
I never said libertarians want to kill anyone because they can. I said that many believe that if a murderer takes their victim's life (which they own), the murderer can have his life taken. Libertarians believing in just taking any life because you can violate their own principles, which hold that...
all persons are the absolute owners of their own lives, and should be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property, provided they allow others the same liberty and avoid harming others by abusing their liberty.
Libertarians don't believe in taking one's life unless in self defense, because that violates their natural right to live. If the violator took away someone else's right to live, we must take theirs.
And to your first statement...
Libertarians generally do not oppose force used in response to initiatory aggressions such as violence, fraud or trespassing. Libertarians favor an ethic of self-responsibility and strongly oppose the welfare state, because they believe forcing someone to provide aid to others is ethically wrong, ultimately counter-productive, or both. Libertarians also strongly oppose conscription.
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libertanians suck! lets jail all libertanians before they kill anyone else!
Die. :P
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all persons are the absolute owners of their own lives, and should be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property, provided they allow others the same liberty and avoid harming others by abusing their liberty.
plus the ethics, means they dont kill. you havent stated they favor death penalty. if the one that killed is a libertanian, people cant do anything to him, because he's the owner of his own life, plus same rule applies to the other, doesnt make me belive they wanna kill him after he killed anyone, wich if so, any other one can kill the one that killed him wich killed another being...wait! ah no thats right. Libertanians would provoke a chain of killings in your theory, they would end up destroying themselves, either you just want that the death penalty is acceptable for libertanians, either you didnt understood you master's taughts, either i dont get why they belive in death penalty.
where did you read that? i hope it wasnt on any Nietzsche i havent read yet.
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Libertarians don't believe in taking one's life unless in self defense, because that violates their natural right to live. If the violator took away someone else's right to live, we must take theirs.
What logic does that follow? Where's "self-defence" in revenge?
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lol you got it, self-defense is the magical word. i leave my defense to the law, not to myself, or else i might be breaking the law...if you kill someone in Portugal in self-defense you might end up being accused of murder, wich is the same. as i said, i favor life, not death by revenge.
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lol you got it, self-defense is the magical word. i leave my defense to the law, not to myself, or else i might be breaking the law...if you kill someone in Portugal in self-defense you might end up being accused of murder, wich is the same. as i said, i favor life, not death by revenge.
IME, it takes at least 15 minutes for the police to respond to an emergency. A lot can happen in 15 minutes. Ultimately, I rely on myself for defense.
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I wasn't calling executions self-defense. They violated my right to live, so we must violate theirs. It's not perfect, but it's fair.
People aren't stupid, Delfos. We'd just kill the murderer, and leave it at that. A libertarian shouldn't kill another man first with some exceptions (i.e., if he's in the military), because doing so would violate his own principles and thus make him non-libertarian.
And you're implying the most evil, horrible, nasty people should live for their actions. If Hitler didn't commit suicide, should he have lived for killing 6 MILLION people? His life is more valuable then theirs? Did the Nazis at the Nuremburg Trials have a right to live in a nice, safe, jail for the rest of their lives instead of dying as they had done to so many? Should they have gotten food, TV, and comfort instead of death? Should pure evil be considered more worthy of live than 6 million Jews, Roma, and homosexuals?
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yes he should have lived, carrying his accusations from international war court..wasnt that what you'v done with Saddam? poor guy got hanged cuz you delivered to the fearsome oppositors. What did USA after Pearl Harbor? master plan to drop nuke bombs in 2 heavily populated cities in japan...wtf? the japanese have hit military targets, you drop 2 nukes to theire population? thats your concept of revenge! Revenge shall be stronger! If he rapes your wife you rape his and his daughter! isnt that what you'r saying? It's totally different with David's justice, if you steal they cut your hands..yeah it's awful but at least he cant do it again. But no you defend this man should be killed! Why people think they can choose who dies or who doesnt, why cant everyone be alive? 'Because he's a murderer' you become one if you kill him too.
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So I should let someone kill me first? Thanks, government!
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If everyone had the above attitude, no one would kill anyone.
I can't see how executing someone could be a worse punishment than letting the perpetrator live for years, knowing well what he has done and possibly even torturing him for his crimes, were they severe enough. After all, he'll die after that, won't he?
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Who says that prisons have to be comfy?
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Technically, Myro.
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Modern ones are. Even supermax prisons give you some comforts, while back in the good ol' Victorian era getting in jail made you never want to shoplift gum, let alone murder.
Posted on: April 25, 2007, 06:32:40 PM
And I consider the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks a war crime, and you can be damned sure that if Nazis invented The Bomb, attacked semi-important American cities, and then lost the war later, they'd be hanged for war crimes. Even so, Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't "heavily populated" in Japan. We killed less in those attacks than Saddam did, I believe.
And your statement of thinking Hitler deserved life only shows how utterly, comedically idiotic you are. He killed SIX MILLION PEOPLE. Letting him live would be saying that HIS LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THEIRS. Is that what you believe, Delfos? That a genocider (?) is more important than the genocidees?
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The only thing prisons of any kind is good for is to provide a meeting-ground for criminals so they can educate eachother.
The theory of making examples doesn't work, it's prooven time and time again, especially in the US as you have one of the worlds strictest punishments and at the same time a rate of violent crime that surpasses every other nation in history.
The reason that theory doesn't work is because the criminal counts on NOT GETTING CAUGHT and then the penalty doesn't matter at all until they are cornered, then they throw caution to the wind.
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This thread is a perfect living example of two well known facts about free-for-all debates. First of all, people involved in arguments frequently base their arguments on half- or complete un-truths:
The United States is the only nation in the world ruled by a piece of paper
Now, European-style democracies, they don't have as much of a need for an armed population, as the executive is far less powerful in most democracies.
The Corps is the most hallowed group of men (and women) that ever fought in the name of freedom, and can kick the shit out of any army on this planet, nevermind your own country you're constantly reffering to
Secondly, people will revert to ad hominem arguments within a blink of an eye, rather than dazzling their opponent with an actual argument, well thought out and well executed:
I just got two words for you: fuck off.
(sorry, is it Switerzerland or Sweden?)
You babies
shows how utterly, comedically idiotic you are
Is it too much to ask that we bring this thread back around to where it was meant to be? Discussing gun laws and capital punishment seems to be a logical extension of any discussion on the VT massacre, but mud slinging about other nations' armies and using bad history to back it all up is pretty embarrassing for the rest of us who have to watch it.
Equally embarrassing are the generalisations used on all sides of this "debate". 'America' or 'Europe' does not consist of one person, you cannot generalise about either of them. Equally, none of you can claim to speak for 'your' country - given that we all live in pluralist democracies that would be impossible, and all the RL societies represented in this region are better for that.
So, if you wish to carry on soberly and objectively discussing gun laws, death penalties and the VT massacre in general, please do so. Given that this is a democracy, you can also just ignore everything I've said and carry on in the same vein. But, for what it's worth (and I'm not pig-headed enough to imagine that it is much), I have to say that a number of people who I previously thought fairly highly of have gone very far down in my estimation because of attitudes, methodology and language displayed in this thread.
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the concept is the same, we'r debating the the right to kill or to live or to whatever. but myro rather to insult than debate.
If the prisons are that comfy, why dont you live in one? I guess Guantanamo is very comfy, they lock up guys for 5years of trial, must be very comfy.
hold your guts before insulting anyone, only shows how ignorant you are if you cannot accept other opinions and points of view.
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Well, it looks like I'm going to be off topic locally, but on globally.
I found it really disturbing that:
1) With obvious mental problems, and a history of violent/suicidal fantasies, this guy had no problems whatsoever getting his hands on guns in a completely legal and above-board way.
2) He (an English major) killed a bunch of engineering students and a professor(s?). That really hurt.
One more thing, someone earlier said he was here on a student's visa, when in actuality he was here legally, had a green card, and had lived here for a very large portion of his life.
This isn't just about the problems with gun control in the US, it's also how we treat and view mental illness. Think about it, almost every other disease (barring STDs) garners you sympathy and compassion, but we still have this knee jerk reaction that "crazies" are somehow personally responsible for how their brain chemistry is fubared, and they become pariahs. The stigma is still incredible, and I can't see it changing anytime soon.
Anyway, just wanted to interject, go back to the "US, my country right or wrong" vs "Europe stereotyping/baiting the silly Americans" argument that was doing such a great job of reconciling the two points of view.
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well what i heard about a psychologist was that he created a world that oppressed him in his head. like if the society outdoors wasnt oppressing at all, green fields, happy people...you can say he had a mental disease, but this event was not just similar to the Columbine.
If the report about the mental illness is right, yes can be disturbing, he can exaggerate or even imagine things that doesnt exist, i can say this because i'v experience, my father had a similar problem, but thank god here in europe we dont have people selling guns to everyone, or else it could be much worse. Now you see this case has much to do with gun control. Im giving you something that happened where there are no guns but for hunters and policemen, and there's nothing like this. I also give you an excellent country that i and most of the portuguese like, Canada, where almost every family has a gun, pretty much like in USA, altho, the issue actually hapenned at least once, but it was not a canadian doing it, and wasnt like Columbine at all.
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It doth appear to me that people doth nay understand the concept of dying.
EDIT: V got it right on the first try, well done.
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It doth appear to me that people doth nay understand the concept of dying.
I'm not entirely sure what you meant by this, but my interpretation makes me agree with you (assuming you're saying what I think you're saying).
It always amazes me how short public attention span is and how parasitic the media can be in situations like this. A little over a week ago 33 people got blown away by a mentally unstable individual isolated and armed by our society, and in that time we've gone from sympathetic, to voyeuristic, to outraged, to this final step where we're violently defending ourselves against the speculation and barbed comments of people from around the world, dredging up the threadbare, "If we weren't around you'd all be speaking German" arguments to counter their broad generalizations about Americans and below the belt attacks on American culture, politics, and history.
The idea being lost in all this is that 33 people died. Obviously the number isn't big in the great scheme of things, but they died at college, a place that's supposed to be a safe haven for people to learn and grow. Shouldn't some introspection be in order? Maybe a critical self-examination of what made this happen, where everyone thinks long and hard before they say anything, and the exchange of give and take has less to do with bending your opponent over the proverbial barrel and more with compromise?
To quote a tyrant I once knew
Please keep the thread on topic or I will be forced to lock it and pull out the ban-stick
(He was such a prick of a mod)
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nicely-said, W.S., it is indeed shame that instead of looking for causes and trying to improve the situation in the US the attention is drawn to pointless debates. heh, i guess that goes to show you that despite our common recent history, there are a lot of issues to be dealt with. "If we weren't around you'd all be speaking German"
^ was that really waved around? humpf...I guess that this is a time to be critical of the gun-control system in the US. I'm sure it will be a major campaign-issue next year, not as in 2004. I can partly understand the tradition of it, through readings, of course, but as long as it stays as it is, such incidents will continue to happen, no doubt about that. On the other hand, daily violence, murder and assault is perhaps less present in reality or (also possible) just in the media, where I'm from. People over here would fail to understand the American strong stance on self-defense. Gun licensing is limited to hunters (I own three guns) and professional users ( guards, different inspection services dealing with dangerous situation and so on) and is seen as a dangerous right to be too libertarian about. I myself undergo two yearly safety-controls each year, reguarding safe-guarding of guns and ammunition, and I've been familiar with a shot-gun from the age of 7, also on a sportsman quality. A comparison would not be extremly relevant. But I think that it's time the US gave it some serious thought.
I do not trust over 50% of my co-nationals to vote and a smaller percent to take care of their children. Those are fundamental rights which are not to be limited. But owning a gun and being allowed to use it in a rather superficially-defined context, that's too much for me. I myself would voice a lot of criticism what US policy is concerned. Gun-control is an internal US issue and needs to be dealt with accordingly.
That it sometimes looks like instead of reducing and preventing crimes from happening it allows them to take place and allow criminal tendencies to materialize in a very facile manner, that may be true. Sensational happenings (read shootings) will always bring about fiery debates when controversial issues are involved. If Americans still think and feel that owning a gun on a large social scale still tells them that they are Americans and it defines their identity, so be it, although over 2oo million guns in civilian hands sounds scarry. If we, Europeans, wonder, how on earth America is very strong about the censorship of sexual nudity and (sometimes light) profanity, but promotes the guns-culture, bloody shootings and all the baggage, that's also explainable, as back in the Old World we see things differently and nuanced according to regional identity. I'm sure that's the case even within the US.
What we shouldn't forget is that, in the end, it is about the people and our next and such happenings should bring us together.
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the concept is the same, we'r debating the the right to kill or to live or to whatever. but myro rather to insult than debate.
Like you haven't laced your RMB arguments with insults, hypocrite.
If the prisons are that comfy, why dont you live in one? I guess Guantanamo is very comfy, they lock up guys for 5years of trial, must be very comfy.
Because homes are more comfortable than prisons, and I'm not the type to violate my principles. Secondly, Guantanamo is a political prison, not a criminal prison. I'm no fan of the US, but I can't stand people who think it's the most evil place on Earth. How many lives did the Estado Novo take away? By your logic, Portugal's government is just as much to blame for the Estado Novo than the atrocities former American administrations did.
hold your guts before insulting anyone, only shows how ignorant you are if you cannot accept other opinions and points of view.
As if you don't obviously show that you consider anyone who's not a commiliberal a complete idiot who needs to be jailed.
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Estado Novo died long time ago, we made a revolution so that we wouldnt bare those awful things you'r saying about Estado Novo. The difference between Estado Novo and the American Administration is that Estado Novo is the past and AA is the present. If you wanna compare them so much, why dont you make a revolution? as i said before, if you ellect a crappy president you can allways overthrow him. Happens anywhere else.
Estado Novo made us fight a war that we didnt want, look how opportunist this is. When we made the revolution we ended that stupid war...people all over US wanna end that stupid war too and Bush wants to vet it. GL with that. May 2008 is quite far..why not august of 2007 so that the soldiers can enjoy a bit of the summer at homes?
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You're blaming many atrocities from former American administrations on the current people, so I tried to show you what it was like when I blamed the Estado Novo's atrocity on current Portuguese.
And the next president won't withdraw all the troops from Iraq at once. That'd be stupid and bring Iraq into chaos. Even with the next president, we'll still be there a long time.
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PLEASE KEEP THIS DEBATE CIVIL AND ON TOPIC. DO GO BACK TO CARTWRIGHTIA'S POST FOR A REPEATED READING. IF YOU STILL HAVEN'T GOT IT, READ IT AGAIN. IF YOU THEN HAVE QUESTIONS, FEEL FREE TO ASK THEM.
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Thanx PoD.....Exactly what I was gonna say.....There is a thread for the type of political ranting you guys are getting into.....
Please post there and not disrespect what is meant to be a memorial thread for 33 Dead People.... (http://http://forum.taijitu.org/general-discussion/just-another-political-arguing-thread/msg38773/#new[/url)
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who said we were disrespecting? plus it's logical to do something about it instead of mourn it till next massacre.
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Again, please do not change this thread into a hate thread. We are community here (albeit a very diverse one) and this IS a memorial thread.
Myro- please try to censor yourself before hurling insults, you'll find you will gain more friends by it.
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You know, I never understood why we mourn the dead. And by saying "we," I'm just being condescending and mean "you."
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heh! mainly to show respect for the dead and to comfort the living, kind of a formalized process in use since imemorial times. and from my pov, we were not as much mourning the dead as we're not directly involved nor have been affected directly by the happenings, but were trying to discuss the topic without bringing insult, ignorance and unnecessary irony into the discussion. i guess that must be a boring concept for some.
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it's not boring. Happens that 3 topics converged into this one, this is pointed as a cause or proof of something and the arguing passed over here. Im holding myself to not continue arguing here, it's not that hard really :p
anyway, i feel sorry for the victims (victims are all they who are hit with tragedy of this case)
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What I meant with my question, why is it such a tragedy?
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Soly, most people here are going to take that as insanely cruel sarcasm. I would suggest you ask that question of people you know better.
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Yes, I know, hence blinding themselves to the deeply philosophical question concerning the nature and relative value of human life as we perceive it through a question that seemingly hides its true essence behind the simple guise of sarcasm. However, should I hold such bias in my heart that I would deny fellow members of my delightful species to remain ignorant of yet another seed that a creation of ours has spurned forth into this world of ours?
Would it, with all honesty and good intentions kept close at hand, be fair for me to let this opportunity to question such fascinating ideals like the "sanctity of life" or "human rights" simply to slip away, unhindered by the heavy burden of thought?
Truly, would it not be a shame to lay on the line of fire that which we assume to be true merely because of indoctrination and the self-serving nature of those thoughts?
I have full faith that it is so, therefore I decided to present my question.
My sincerest apologies if anyone is offended, but not for the most common reasons.