Taijitu
Government of Taijitu => The Ecclesia => Proposals and Discussion => Topic started by: Khem on April 05, 2015, 03:25:02 AM
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I propose the following to safeguard from the threat of centralized power and its capacity to taint our Glorious Revolution. I would love some input.
1. Elected Officials
1. All elected officials shall be limited to holding a single office at a time.
2. The Ecclesia hereby defines an elected official as any of the following offices: Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Sergeant, Citizen-Liaison?
3. Any elected office not exempted specifically by this measure do not count as an additional office for elected officials.
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An excellent post, strengthening Taijituan democracy and filled with revolutionary spirit!
I would advocate including Liaison in the bill either by motioning for a vote if the Liaison act passes, or including it as an amendment after the fact.
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I think we need to come up with a term other than "elected official." I get why we're not including the Dean and the Editor, but to argue that they aren't elected officials seems off. Elected government official maybe?
Is 1.1 meant to keep elected officials from holding any of the appointed offices as well? For example, is it meant to keep the Citizen-Sergeant from serving as citizen-diplomat, or does it extend even further to keep them from serving as citizen-ambassadors, citizen-guides, etc.? We need to flesh that out a bit so we're clear on exactly what we mean to prevent.
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I believe the language contains only those offices enshrined elected government officials rather than just any officer of said office or in the case of C-Diplomat being an unelected office would also not bar that. So the updated text would be:
1. Elected Government Officials
1. All elected government officials shall be limited to holding a single office at a time.
2. The Ecclesia hereby defines an elected government official as any of the following offices: Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Sergeant
3. Any elected office not exempted specifically by this measure does not count as an additional office for elected government officials.
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:taijitu:
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I do agree with Cormac that term other than "elected official" would be better, since it precludes the need for the third clause and we may in the future want to add unelected offices to the list. My initial proposal would be "independent offices".
1. Elected Government Officials Independent Offices
1. All elected government officials shall be limited to holding a single independent office at a time.
2. The Ecclesia hereby Independent offices shall be definesed an elected government official as any of the following offices: of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, and Citizen-Sergeant.
3. Any elected office not exempted specifically by this measure does not count as an additional office for elected government officials.
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I like Gulliver's revison.
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I do agree with Cormac that term other than "elected official" would be better, since it precludes the need for the third clause and we may in the future want to add unelected offices to the list. My initial proposal would be "independent offices".
1. Elected Government Officials Independent Offices
1. All elected government officials shall be limited to holding a single independent office at a time.
2. The Ecclesia hereby Independent offices shall be definesed an elected government official as any of the following offices: of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, and Citizen-Sergeant.
3. Any elected office not exempted specifically by this measure does not count as an additional office for elected government officials.
I do in large part like the revision and appreciate the title yet I worry such a name gives the illusion of being responsible to the self over the wider community. I know it is a semantic argument but I always feel strongly about word choice and this appears to me a poor one. Even "Executive Offices" would be better in terms of language (of course yours is still better than my initial draft title for them :P ).
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I've been thinking about both this and how to ensure that all of our government offices have equal power and are equally accountable to the Ecclesia, and I was wondering if it might be wise to unite our elected offices into a single collective institution. So something like this:
1. Composition
1. The Executive Council will be comprised of the following executive offices: Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Liaison, Citizen-Sergeant.
2. All officers will be limited to holding a single executive office at a time.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Executive Council will hold regular meetings to discuss and address matters on the executive agenda, which will include any matter any officer wishes to discuss. The minutes of such meetings will be provided to the Ecclesia.
2. The Executive Council may, by majority vote, invite other officials to participate in its meetings. Only executive officers may vote on Executive Council matters.
3. The Executive Council may, by majority vote, set executive policy in regard to any executive matter that involves more than one executive office. Such policy may be amended or repealed by the Ecclesia.
4. Agreements negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate and/or citizen-diplomats with other regions or organizations will only be submitted to the Ecclesia following a majority vote of the Executive Council in favor.
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I've been thinking about both this and how to ensure that all of our government offices have equal power and are equally accountable to the Ecclesia, and I was wondering if it might be wise to unite our elected offices into a single collective institution. So something like this:
1. Composition
1. The Executive Council will be comprised of the following executive offices: Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Liaison, Citizen-Sergeant.
2. All officers will be limited to holding a single executive office at a time.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Executive Council will hold regular meetings to discuss and address matters on the executive agenda, which will include any matter any officer wishes to discuss. The minutes of such meetings will be provided to the Ecclesia.
2. The Executive Council may, by majority vote, invite other officials to participate in its meetings. Only executive officers may vote on Executive Council matters.
3. The Executive Council may, by majority vote, set executive policy in regard to any executive matter that involves more than one executive office. Such policy may be amended or repealed by the Ecclesia.
4. Agreements negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate and/or citizen-diplomats with other regions or organizations will only be submitted to the Ecclesia following a majority vote of the Executive Council in favor.
I could definitely support this measure. It does all I had wanted in separation of powers and then some.
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I'll support this. Accountability to the people and each other.
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I also thought of a fifth clause, for more accountability to the Ecclesia:
5. The Executive Council will deliver comprehensive reports on the progress of executive initiatives to the Ecclesia during the months of Ventaire, Orôse, Tonneral, and Lacidor.
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Quarterly reports? I can get behind that.
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I'd maybe consider changing the name. "Executive Council' might make some people nervous. Maybe "Advisory Council" to highlight its role as advisory to the Ecclesia.
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I'd maybe consider changing the name. "Executive Council' might make some people nervous. Maybe "Advisory Council" to highlight its role as advisory to the Ecclesia.
Good idea, I'll tweak that.
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Also, personally I'd prefer more frequent reports to the Ecclesia perhaps. I would like to have the citizenry well informed of whatever the officers are doing.
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Also, personally I'd prefer more frequent reports to the Ecclesia perhaps. I would like to have the citizenry well informed of whatever the officers are doing.
Bi-monthly or monthly reports?
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I think bimonthly would be most sensible.
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I had been considering bi-monthly as well, so that works for me. How's this:
1. Composition
1. The Advisory Council will advise the Ecclesia in regard to executive policy and will be comprised of the following executive offices: Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Liaison, Citizen-Sergeant.
2. All officers will be limited to holding a single executive office at a time.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Advisory Council will hold regular meetings to discuss and address matters on the executive agenda, which will include any matter any officer wishes to discuss. The minutes of such meetings will be provided to the Ecclesia.
2. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, invite other officials to participate in its meetings. Only executive officers may vote on Advisory Council matters.
3. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, set executive policy in regard to any executive matter that involves more than one executive office. Such policy may be amended or repealed by the Ecclesia.
4. Agreements negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate and/or citizen-diplomats with other regions or organizations will only be submitted to the Ecclesia following a majority vote of the Advisory Council in favor.
5. The Advisory Council will deliver comprehensive reports on the progress of executive initiatives to the Ecclesia during the months of Ventaire, Boisaire, Gaïôse, Tonneral, Sidéral, and Cielidor.
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That looks good to me. I'd like to recieve some input from other citizens before moving to a vote, though.
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That looks good to me. I'd like to recieve some input from other citizens before moving to a vote, though.
I would too. We also need to wait for the Citizen-Liaison Act to pass for this to make sense.
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This looks good to me, though there are a few tweaks I'd suggest, namely that the first clause lists what is a power in the composition rather than powers, section, and that the term "executive office" is never actually defined for use in the second clause of the first section.
1. Composition
1. The Advisory Council will [st]advise the Ecclesia in regard to executive policy and will[/st] be comprised of the [st]following executive offices:[/st] Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Liaison[st],[/st] [in]and[/in] Citizen-Sergeant.
2. All officers will be limited to holding a single [st]executive[/st] office [in]of the Advisory Council[/in] at a time.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
[in]1. The Advisory Council will advise the Ecclesia in regard to executive policy.[/in]
[st]1[/st] [in]2[/in]. The Advisory Council will hold regular meetings to discuss and address matters on the executive agenda, which will include any matter any officer wishes to discuss. The minutes of such meetings will be provided to the Ecclesia.
[st]2[/st] [in]3[/in]. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, invite other officials to participate in its meetings. Only [st]executive[/st] officers [in]of the Advisory Council[/in] may vote on Advisory Council matters.
[st]3[/st] [in]4[/in]. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, set executive policy in regard to any executive matter that involves more than one executive office. Such policy may be amended or repealed by the Ecclesia.
[st]4[/st] [in]5[/in]. Agreements negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate [st]and/[/st]or citizen-diplomats with other regions or organizations will only be submitted to the Ecclesia following a majority vote of the Advisory Council in favor.
[st]5[/st] [in]6[/in]. The Advisory Council will deliver comprehensive reports on the progress of executive initiatives to the Ecclesia during the months of Ventaire, Boisaire, Gaïôse, Tonneral, Sidéral, and Cielidor.
Also on the topic of names, the executive council of Athens was apparently called the Boule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boule_%28ancient_Greece%29), but that doesn't really sound great in modern English. The officers were called prytaneis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prytaneis) which is a bit of a mouthful. Napoleon apparently also made a French version of the word and named a school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prytan%C3%A9e_National_Militaire#Prytan.C3.A9e_Militaire_.281808-today.29) after it, so that's an option if the sense is correct.
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number 3 (Gulliver's 4) seems undefined (maybe on purpose?). It either refers more specifically to things the offices are "allowed" to do that have been approved by the Ecclesia and therefore include such reference, or if it's not for things the offices(ers) aren't supposed to already be doing then it should pass through Ecclesia. Any chance this bill can and should reinforce the power of Ecclesia should be specified.
Also Gulliver's blue marker is prettier.
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Since a majority vote is required, there must be a provision for cases with equal number of votes for and against.
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Since a majority vote is required, there must be a provision for cases with equal number of votes for and against.
An equal split is definitely not a majority vote, it would qualify as a failed vote equivalent to those against other officers joining the meeting winning.
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Since a majority vote is required, there must be a provision for cases with equal number of votes for and against.
An equal split is definitely not a majority vote, it would qualify as a failed vote equivalent to those against other officers joining the meeting winning.
This means that in a 50/50 split nothing moves.
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Since a majority vote is required, there must be a provision for cases with equal number of votes for and against.
An equal split is definitely not a majority vote, it would qualify as a failed vote equivalent to those against other officers joining the meeting winning.
This means that in a 50/50 split nothing moves.
Precisely, any motion fails lacking a majority.
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Since a majority vote is required, there must be a provision for cases with equal number of votes for and against.
An equal split is definitely not a majority vote, it would qualify as a failed vote equivalent to those against other officers joining the meeting winning.
This means that in a 50/50 split nothing moves.
Precisely, any motion fails lacking a majority.
Obviously! My point is; do we want that. A 50/50 standoff on several questions may create a long term tension to the general detrimant of Taijitu. If we have 5 officers, for instance, It would be different (or any odd number). Perhaps the Citizen-Delegate shold be able to decide in this case. On the other hand it might give the Citizen-Delegate too much power. Is there a case for a 5th Officer?
In a way it is of course a good thing to pass decisions with a 3/4th majority, but I see a risk that the Advisory Council will turn in to a cabinett of officers holding the same opinions - like a political party. That might lead to election campains where voting would start to emerge along party lines so as to make sure there is a viable majority in the Advisory Council. Since I am not particularly fond of the present political party system that is prvailng in the RW, one of the important advantages to Direct democracy is the possibility to avoid this.
We have to think ahead. Not only consider the present situation. We have recently attracted a lot of attention in NS and the rapidly increasing membership might suggest that some of these new members might be power people that are coming here to infiltrate and establish a new power base. I myself got a recruting telegram today, which is the first I have got ever, except the ones you get when your nation is re-established after a "cesession".
Our present conflict with Lazarus may also indicate that some powers might be moving against us. I admit I am not very knowledgable concerning some of the in game politics, but I can see the trend. That is also why I need to be better informed on these issues before I vote.
Perhaps we need a Citizen-Judiciary as a fifth member of the Advicory council.
I feel a need to do a lot of things here, but I lack the time. It is very frustrating. Arrgh!
:tai: All power to the people! :tai: Down with all tyrants! :tai:
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A permanent judiciary would be its own topic as would creation of any such offices. The aim is to keep the executive functioning on the same page while operating separately. Sure the split vote is hard with four offices present, however that does not constitute a dire need to create a fifth office merely to tip the vote. Power seekers may come but our Citizen-Initiator does do background checks on all applicant nations to weed out infiltration by enemy forces. I would also not see political parties become common but such is up to individual will and not for us to legislate against free formations of Citizens.
Feel free to message me about directives you wish to see undertaken and I shall see if my own time here could move such to fruition.
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I agree with Khem. I don't think a fifth officer is necessary unless the need arises organically.
If we absolutely need a tie breaker, we could draw a lot of all citizens who have posted in the last month and whoever draws the marked lot breaks the tie.
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1. Composition
1. The Advisory Council will be comprised of the Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Liaison, and Citizen-Sergeant.
2. All officers will be limited to holding a single office of the Advisory Council at a time.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Advisory Council will advise the Ecclesia in regard to executive policy.
2. The Advisory Council will hold regular meetings to discuss and address matters on the executive agenda, which will include any matter any officer wishes to discuss. The minutes of such meetings will be provided to the Ecclesia.
3. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, invite other officials to participate in its meetings. Only officers of the Advisory Council may vote on Advisory Council matters.
4. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, set policy in regard to any matter that involves more than one office of the Advisory Council. Such policy may be amended or repealed by the Ecclesia.
5. Agreements negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate or citizen-diplomats with other regions or organizations will only be submitted to the Ecclesia following a majority vote of the Advisory Council in favor.
6. The Advisory Council will deliver comprehensive reports on the progress of executive initiatives to the Ecclesia during the months of Ventaire, Boisaire, Gaïôse, Tonneral, Sidéral, and Cielidor.
This draft adopts the changes Gulliver suggested, above. Other suggestions?
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It's been a few days with no additional comments, so I move for a vote.
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Seconded for a vote.
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Oh crap how did I miss the Council's ability to set policy in the bill.
Maybe I should just abstain 'cause I suck <_<
I'll try to think about this some more asap.
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wow, how did the separation of powers become a council act?
well my own fault for not reading the thread.
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1. Composition
1. The Advisory Council will be comprised of the Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Initiator, Citizen-Liaison, and Citizen-Sergeant.
2. All officers will be limited to holding a single office of the Advisory Council at a time.
2. Powers and Responsibilities
1. The Advisory Council will advise the Ecclesia in regard to executive policy.
2. The Advisory Council will hold regular meetings to discuss and address matters on the executive agenda, which will include any matter any officer wishes to discuss. The minutes of such meetings will be provided to the Ecclesia.
3. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, invite other officials or citizens to participate in its meetings. Only officers of the Advisory Council or others invited to meetings may vote on Advisory Council matters.
4. The Advisory Council may, by majority vote, set policy in regard to any matter that involves more than one office of the Advisory Council. Such policy may be amended or repealed by the Ecclesia.
5. Agreements negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate or citizen-diplomats with other regions or organizations will only be submitted to the Ecclesia following a majority vote of the Advisory Council in favor.
6. The Advisory Council will deliver comprehensive reports on the progress of executive initiatives to the Ecclesia during the months of Ventaire, Boisaire, Gaïôse, Tonneral, Sidéral, and Cielidor.
This draft adopts the changes Gulliver suggested, above. Other suggestions?
I like it, but I changed one thing.