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Author Topic: Reform Proposals and Discussion  (Read 2655 times)

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2015, 04:15:19 AM »
Could it be simplified as held elected office the least recently?

Offline Delfos

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2015, 11:59:43 AM »
he's running again for the same office and never held any other office before, the other guy has held 2 other offices but haven't run in a year, in your simplification the guy that already held office can have another go, the point is that people who held power "most recently", specially immediately before, don't get a go, so they can't warm the seat too much, and this is even in the event of tie so it's like a super special rare occasion that likely will never happen. You can't simplify, it needs all those clauses to "break ties" if they tie about holding or not holding office.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2015, 12:47:35 AM »
Quote from: Delfos
You can't simplify, it needs all those clauses to "break ties" if they tie about holding or not holding office.

It's actually quite possible for two people to tie for all the clauses, as it is, in retrospect, for two people to tie on my proposed simplified version. One thing that wouldn't tie would be forum registration time. Unfortunately, I can't think of a good way to randomly break ties in a verifiable manner, unless we can think of a good verifiable way to generate a seed for a random number generator.

I don't expect ties to be super common, so the tie-breaking logic we adopt doesn't have to be perfect and cover every single case, it just has to be good enough. All the clauses in your proposal will trigger with such rarity, if ever, that they will contribute very little in forcing transfers in power to justify the added complexity.

Offline Prydania

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2015, 03:38:14 AM »
I've gone ahead and drafted a possible Constitution:

Quote from: Constitution Draft
1. Citizenship
1. Any person who possesses a nation in the region of Taijitu may apply for citizenship.
2. The content of applications for citizenship will be established by law.
3. Citizenship may only be revoked if a citizen's nation ceases to be in Taijitu, as punishment for a crime, or if a citizen renounces it willingly.
4. The Citizen-Initiator will evaluate and accept or reject all applications for citizenship.
5. If the Citizen-Initiator rejects an application for citizenship, the Ecclesia may approve it by a majority vote.

2. Bill of Rights
1. All citizens are guaranteed equal protection under the law.
2. No citizen may be deprived of access the Regional Forums necessary to exercise their other rights.
3. No citizen may be subjected to inquiry into their private affairs absent reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.
4. No citizen may be charged for an act that was not a crime at the time it was committed.
5. No citizen may be found guilty of a crime by decree or legislation.
6. No citizen charged with a crime may be kept ignorant of the charges against them
7. No citizen charged with a crime may be deprived of a swift, fair and public trial.
8. No citizen may be deprived of representation at a trial.
9. No citizen may be compelled to bear witness against themselves.
10. All citizens are guaranteed the freedom conscience, expression and assocation.
11. All citizens are guaranteed the right to participate in any election.
12. All citizens are guaranteed the right to run for and hold public office.
13. No citizen may be ejected from Taijitu or limited in their access to the Regional Forums absent criminal charges.
14. No person will be considered necessarily deprived of any right not enumerated here.

3. The Ecclesia
1. The Ecclesia will consist of all citizens of Taijitu.
2. The Ecclesia may adopt, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote.
4. The Ecclesia may amend this consitution by two two-thirds majority votes held no less than a week apart.
5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law.
6. The Citizen-Initiator will conduct the business of the Ecclesia and maintain records of the law.
7. The Citizen-Initiator may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.

4. The Directorate
1. The Directorate will be composed of the Citizen-Delegate, the Citizen-Steward and the Citizen-Sergeant.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy.
4. The Citizen-Seargant will serve as commander in chief of the armed forces and conduct military policy.
5. Members of the Directorate may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
6. Members of the Directorate may style the titles of their deputies as appropriate.

5. Elections
1. The offices of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Steward, Citizen-Seargent and Citizen-Initiator will be considered elected offices.
2. An election for an elected office will be held if three months have passed since the last election for the office, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election for the office by majority vote or the office is vacant.
3. Elections will be held using the two-round system with a majority threshold.
4. Ties during elections will be broken in favor of the candidate who declared their candidacy first.

I agree that a number of laws will also have to be altered inline with any constitution.
I approve of most of this. My  :2c:

I'm not in favour of 3.1. I'm a strong believer in the old Taijitu Senate model. Have an application process.
5.4 is also a problem. I would prefer Delfos' proposal.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2015, 06:47:32 PM »
At the time I wrote this draft, the two options tied. Right now, the apply to be a member option has a slight lead, albeit not a 2/3's one. I make an alternate draft including it, though it may be harder to pass.

This also brings up a point that I in my eternal lack of foresight overlooked, namely what kind of application? Is it approved by the Citizen-Initiator as a procedural matter, by a vote of the Ecclesia, or something else?

On the issue of tie-breaking, I think we still lack an option which can't actually just tie again.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 07:20:46 PM by Gulliver »

Offline Prydania

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2015, 08:05:54 PM »
My objection to giving whoever was nominated first is that it's so arbitrary. I'm not opposed to giving some elected position the job of casting a tie-breaking vote, but Delfos' plan definitely disperses the power, which is appealing.

This may sound silly but...how about a flip of a coin? Or some other 50/50 activity? I'm a football fan. And it's getting to the end of the regular season. So you hear a lot of talk about tie-breaking formulas when it comes to playoff seeding. No joke. A coin flip is the option of last resort if two teams are tied in the standings through all measurable statistics.
There are logistical issues, but none that can't be overcome.

https://www.random.org/coins/

Obviously this would be a last resort option. I don't expect it to become a regular occurrence.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2015, 08:34:07 PM »
I'm fine with breaking ties randomly if it's verifiable. Some way of picking a random generator seed that's deterministic but not controlled by a single person might work (e.g. hash the sum of post time stamps in the nomination thread or something).

Offline Myroria

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2015, 10:16:46 PM »
I like it as it is mostly; I agree that breaking ties randomly could work.

I like our Citizen-Mediator system for personal disputes but I think recent events have demonstrated the necessity of some sort of constitutional court.
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2015, 03:49:16 AM »
I agree that we need some sort of explicit mechanism for evaluating constitutional and legal disputes is needed. I also think that clearer language on how treaties are negotiated, adopted and repealed. I would suggest that the Citizen-Delegate may negotiation treaties and embassies exchanges, and the Ecclesia may ratify them by a two-thirds majority. I'm not sure about repealing.

The recent discussion about military policy has also made me wonder if a separate, elected Citizen-Sergeant would have much to do if day-to-day operations were being run by separate armies or militias. Perhaps the power of bringing these forces together for joint operations in defense of Taijitu or her allies should also fall to the Citizen-Delegate, creating a single, game-side office.

Offline Prydania

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2016, 03:58:23 PM »
All of this would depend on what shape TaiMil ends up taking but assuming (for the sake of argument) that the private militia proposal goes forward?

I still see the importance of TaiMil as a separate, independent branch of the government. TaiMil would need to act as an umbrella organization to direct general military policy and still organize Taijitu military operations. Even perhaps coordinate joint operations between the various private militias.
It would further act as an agency to ensure that private militias don't engage in activity that goes against Taijitu's regional interests. Basically ensuring that these militias don't violate any treaties Taijitu is a part of.

I think there's going to be enough to do on the TaiMil end of things to justify keeping the Citizen-Sergeant on as its own elected position.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2016, 02:40:09 PM »
I am not sure what section it would fit best in, but I think clarifying language such as the following could be useful:

Quote
1. The Citizen-Delegate may negotiate treaties and embassy exchanges.
2. The Ecclesia may ratify treaties and embassy exchanges negotiated by the Citizen-Delegate by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may repeal a treaty or embassy exchange by a majority vote.

Offline Prydania

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2016, 02:44:53 AM »
I like.

Offline PoD Gunner

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2016, 11:51:19 AM »
I dislike this Citizen-.... (fill-in position name) formulas, they sound so phony, like you need to affirm that they are elected and not some sort of Egyptian gods. I liked the titles we or some other regions had used before, be it made-up ones or the Ministers position we had.
On top I can't help but picturing the Sergeant as a fat guy with a 'stache who is playing military and hurries up to go home cuz it's 5 pm and his wife is waiting with supper. Again, the one who serves, not the one who commands. It sounds like an attending officer, the one who makes sure you have enough socks and your nails are clean.

I love the use of a random "coin-toss" instrument for breaking up ties. Simple and effective.

I agree with Prydania on re-introducing the application and grilling process of a citizen into the parliamentary assembly of the region.

Not sure how you want to empower the Directorate and the individual executives but have this in there: 5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law. That is too vague for my taste. I believe that any new executive will have to present a governance program and the Parliament will discuss and sanction it, amending and requesting modifications, if necessary.

3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote. - for any or no reason?

Futhermore, I did love a system with a more elaborate government rank: 3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy. - who the heck is this government? :)))) just this guy and the poor Sergeant. You could call it a couple or a pair instead of the government.

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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2016, 02:26:34 PM »
Head of government is a common political title (note the absence of "the" before "government").

Offline Lindisfarne

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Re: Reform Proposals and Discussion
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2016, 01:18:08 PM »
 :tai:
I support this in principle.

I've gone ahead and drafted a possible Constitution:

Quote from: Constitution Draft
1. Citizenship
1. Any person who possesses a nation in the region of Taijitu may apply for citizenship.
2. The content of applications for citizenship will be established by law.
3. Citizenship may only be revoked if a citizen's nation ceases to be in Taijitu, as punishment for a crime, or if a citizen renounces it willingly.
4. The Citizen-Initiator will evaluate and accept or reject all applications for citizenship.
5. If the Citizen-Initiator rejects an application for citizenship, the Ecclesia may approve it by a majority vote.

2. Bill of Rights
1. All citizens are guaranteed equal protection under the law.
2. No citizen may be deprived of access the Regional Forums necessary to exercise their other rights.
3. No citizen may be subjected to inquiry into their private affairs absent reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.
4. No citizen may be charged for an act that was not a crime at the time it was committed.
5. No citizen may be found guilty of a crime by decree or legislation.
6. No citizen charged with a crime may be kept ignorant of the charges against them
7. No citizen charged with a crime may be deprived of a swift, fair and public trial.
8. No citizen may be deprived of representation at a trial.
9. No citizen may be compelled to bear witness against themselves.
10. All citizens are guaranteed the freedom conscience, expression and assocation.
11. All citizens are guaranteed the right to participate in any election.
12. All citizens are guaranteed the right to run for and hold public office.
13. No citizen may be ejected from Taijitu or limited in their access to the Regional Forums absent criminal charges.
14. No person will be considered necessarily deprived of any right not enumerated here.

3. The Ecclesia
1. The Ecclesia will consist of all citizens of Taijitu.
2. The Ecclesia may adopt, amend or repeal laws by a majority vote.
3. The Ecclesia may remove any government official by a majority vote.
4. The Ecclesia may amend this consitution by two two-thirds majority votes held no less than a week apart.
5. The Ecclesia may regulate foreign, domestic and military policy by law.
6. The Citizen-Initiator will conduct the business of the Ecclesia and maintain records of the law.
7. The Citizen-Initiator may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.

4. The Directorate
1. The Directorate will be composed of the Citizen-Delegate, the Citizen-Steward and the Citizen-Sergeant.
2. The Citizen-Delegate will serve as head of state and conduct foreign policy.
3. The Citizen-Steward will serve as head of government and conduct domestic policy.
4. The Citizen-Seargant will serve as commander in chief of the armed forces and conduct military policy.
5. Members of the Directorate may appoint and dismiss any number of citizens as deputies to assist them in their duties.
6. Members of the Directorate may style the titles of their deputies as appropriate.

5. Elections
1. The offices of Citizen-Delegate, Citizen-Steward, Citizen-Seargent and Citizen-Initiator will be considered elected offices.
2. An election for an elected office will be held if three months have passed since the last election for the office, the Ecclesia chooses to hold an election for the office by majority vote or the office is vacant.
3. Elections will be held using the two-round system with a majority threshold.
4. Ties during elections will be broken in favor of the candidate who declared their candidacy first.

I agree that a number of laws will also have to be altered inline with any constitution.

Two things:
Article 2:13 is just repeating Article 1:3.
Under paragraph four should be added:
   4:7 No Citizen may be elected for more than one office in the Directorate.

I am not happy with the formulation of 5:4, but I have no real alternative. Perhaps the random solution would be for the best?
.