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News: Citoyen priority warning: Not reporting counter-revolutionary activities is conspiracy to commit counter-revolution under the Anticivil Activities Act. Penalties go up to and include permanent Ecclesiastical explusion.

Author Topic: Legislation Concerning Citizenship  (Read 5729 times)

Offline Stone Shark

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Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« on: November 29, 2014, 03:57:17 PM »
Seeing how easy it is to get Citizenship, one simply has to request it and they are almost always immediately accepted, I feel that it would be better if we were to tighten the rules as to avoid potentially harmful individuals to our community from joining. However I like that our citizenship rules are much more liberal and I will definitely keep it more liberal than other regions.

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« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 09:30:14 PM by Stone Shark »
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Offline Khem

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2014, 04:16:27 PM »
I am firmly against any requirements beyond having a Taijitu nation and asking. Though I do rather enjoy your proposal if we were to be more restrictive, it is well written.

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Offline Stone Shark

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2014, 04:23:32 PM »
I am firmly against any requirements beyond having a Taijitu nation and asking. Though I do rather enjoy your proposal if we were to be more restrictive, it is well written.

Thank you.  :wb:

This is just preliminary drafting, I can liberalize it even more, I would be happy to in fact, however we do need some restrictions, like an Oath of Citizenship, it holds legal implications as well, should one violate our laws we cannot prosecute them, because without taking an oath they have not agreed to uphold our laws.
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Offline Khem

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2014, 04:28:18 PM »
I am not necessarily against a new Oath of Citizenship as such does make one feel the part of Citizen ever more so. Also not completely against a questionnaire though I would not like its responses from citizens to count against them in obtaining such status but more as a getting to know you prompt.

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Offline Stone Shark

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2014, 04:30:40 PM »
I am not necessarily against a new Oath of Citizenship as such does make one feel the part of Citizen ever more so. Also not completely against a questionnaire though I would not like its responses from citizens to count against them in obtaining such status but more as a getting to know you prompt.

I like that idea. Perhaps the Oath could be mandatory, and the Questionnaire could be optional, but filling it out would only count towards gaining citizenship, unless of course their were some glaringly obvious problems, like a history of bans etc.
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Offline Khem

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2014, 05:07:27 PM »
Of course bans from certain regions may even be seen as a good thing (*cough* Aurahyperia *cough*). Yes i agree it would allow for the red flags to raise at a more opportune time for dealing with them and gathering the necessary intelligence.

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Offline Delfos

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2014, 05:18:57 PM »
I don't like the symbolic stuff to get in the way of citizenship like the oath, copy pasting an oath means nothing.

I do like the questionnaire, with a simple questions about Taijitu so that they actually read about the Ecclesia and other stuff, again like Khem said, I wouldn't like the questionnaire to limit that person's citizenship to Taijitu.

I have a history of bans (I got banned from Taijitu, I'd say for protesting but others don't have that perspective) and I'm an obvious problem since I contest everything that is decided apparently, do I  not deserve to be a citizen? It's really unfair to judge someone through a questionnaire or what perception you have of their history. Fighting against two SD dictatorships would never show up in my history.

Offline Stone Shark

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2014, 05:55:30 PM »
I have edited along the recommendations I have received.
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2014, 07:21:29 PM »
Here are my brief thoughts:

1. I think that this reform of the system is sorely needed. Taijitu has grown immensely since the Glorious Revolution and I would like to see the application standardized. That being said,
2. Delfos makes a point that oathbreakers will be oathbreakers. However, I think - to echo what Khem said - that it provides an excellent way to "get into character" and really feel like a citizen. I think the oath is a great idea and I wholeheartedly support it.
π. The questionnaire - I agree with Khem that it shouldn't be required. I like the "fast-track" idea - applicants who care enough to open up will naturally have more attention paid to them anyway so why not officially encourage it?
¿. To address Delfos' concerns - our good revolutionary friends in Lazarus include a "short history in NS" question on their application. Here, someone like yourself with a long history of fighting oppression could make a case and defend their actions. If, like you, their heart was in the right place, the Initiator or their deputy would surely see so upon their investigation.
€. Two corrections in the oath: Citizens should take this oath in good conscience (;)), and a period would fit nicely after "egalitarianism".
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2014, 08:36:29 PM »
I like the idea of reintroducing an oath so long as it's simple and to the point. I'm not sure how I feel about a questionnaire though. Any questions that would be useful, like history of previous bans, could just be left out and there wouldn't be any easy way to check that. On the other hand, I can see the value in a simple question asking for a brief background in getting to know the applicant and making them feel a bit more vested.

Regardless, I do think the process by which applications are submitted, reviewed, rejected, and possibly appealed to a vote of the Ecclesia, should be formalized and there should be some standard form to fill in, even if the information is the same as now.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2014, 08:52:30 PM »
I like the idea of reintroducing an oath so long as it's simple and to the point. I'm not sure how I feel about a questionnaire though. Any questions that would be useful, like history of previous bans, could just be left out and there wouldn't be any easy way to check that. On the other hand, I can see the value in a simple question asking for a brief background in getting to know the applicant and making them feel a bit more vested.

Regardless, I do think the process by which applications are submitted, reviewed, rejected, and possibly appealed to a vote of the Ecclesia, should be formalized and there should be some standard form to fill in, even if the information is the same as now.

In case we change our process, I believe Gulliver summed an acceptable proposal. Yet i'm still not sold in the institutionalization of the citizenship process.

Offline Stone Shark

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2014, 09:09:33 PM »
Here are my brief thoughts:

1. I think that this reform of the system is sorely needed. Taijitu has grown immensely since the Glorious Revolution and I would like to see the application standardized. That being said,
2. Delfos makes a point that oathbreakers will be oathbreakers. However, I think - to echo what Khem said - that it provides an excellent way to "get into character" and really feel like a citizen. I think the oath is a great idea and I wholeheartedly support it.
3. The questionnaire - I agree with Khem that it shouldn't be required. I like the "fast-track" idea - applicants who care enough to open up will naturally have more attention paid to them anyway so why not officially encourage it?
4. To address Delfos' concerns - our good revolutionary friends in Lazarus include a "short history in NS" question on their application. Here, someone like yourself with a long history of fighting oppression could make a case and defend their actions. If, like you, their heart was in the right place, the Initiator or their deputy would surely see so upon their investigation.
5. Two corrections in the oath: Citizens should take this oath in good conscience (;)), and a period would fit nicely after "egalitarianism".

1. I do as well.  :)
2. Agreed.
3. My thoughts as well.
4.
5. Done.

Okay I have updated once again with suggestions.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 09:19:08 PM by Stone Shark »
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Offline Myroria

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2014, 01:57:44 PM »
In case we change our process, I believe Gulliver summed an acceptable proposal. Yet i'm still not sold in the institutionalization of the citizenship process.

Perhaps when we submit this to a vote we have "yes, with questionnaire", "yes, without questionnaire", and "no" options?

Part of me likes how easy it is to become a citizen but I think as we grow standardizing the process will just make things a lot easier for everyone and will let us keep track of the roster more easily.

In addition, as we grow and especially as the Militia becomes more active we should be concerned about spies and saboteurs. This isn't foolproof by any means but at least it, and a background check, is a hurdle for agents to jump over.
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2014, 05:41:04 PM »
I understand your concerns, but we have other mechanisms that need to start working for that kind of thing, regional security and judiciary.

Offline Myroria

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Re: Legislation Concerning Citizenship
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 03:46:32 PM »
I don't think we need to add bureaucracy we don't need at this time like Regional Security when we could just let the Initiator and their deputy handle it.
"I assure you -- I will be quite content to be a mere mortal again, dedicated to my own amusements."