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Author Topic: Judiciary  (Read 1594 times)

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 07:01:49 PM »
This is true, so that solves that problem. Do we care about the Ecclesia itself trying to do something unconstitutional? It could pass a law, for example, which contravenes the bill of rights by a simple majority.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2016, 10:38:04 PM »
We could separate the role of constitutional court from the role of criminal justice, maybe?

Have a roster of people the Ecclesia trusts to make impartial and rational decisions as constitutional scholars, and randomly pick from them when a constitutional question is formally raised??
                                 
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Offline Wast

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2016, 02:20:13 AM »
We definitely should - I think the criminal issue is settled (by having the Ecclesia handle it). I like the idea of having a pool of legal 'scholars' that can be called upon, but is it a good idea to leave constitutional questions to random chance? That might be frustrating. Is it any better than just having a set panel of (potential) judges?

In the interest of getting something done, I'm inclined to just go with this idea and see how it turns out - to work out some of the details and build a proposal.

Offline Eluvatar

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2016, 04:29:37 AM »
I suppose we could just have the whole panel of scholars review every question, with unavailable scholars effectively abstaining.
                                 
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Offline Wast

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2016, 06:08:16 AM »
We could do that, but I would rather not have a large, variable-size panel reviewing cases (the pool of judges would have to be somewhat large because of availability, conflict of interest etc.). So I feel like I need to have concrete numbers to get a better sense of how this can work.

Perhaps something like 3 scholars to review a case, requiring two out of three votes [or unanimous agreement?] to resolve a question; chosen randomly from the pool of scholars (of which there would be at least 5) if more than the needed number volunteer.

Or if randomness is too much, have 5 scholars review the case and have those with a conflict of interest recuse themselves (hopefully leaving 3?).

Offline Khem

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2016, 03:53:49 PM »
I'd prefer five scholars but otherwise say this is worthwhile to pursue.

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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2016, 07:07:47 PM »
Would we permit preemptory challenges for the selection of jurors?

If we're going to have scholars/lay judges/jurors, would it be appropriate to also use them for criminal cases (though convicting by a super-majority in the Ecclesia is also feasible)?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 07:10:08 PM by Gulliver »

Offline Khem

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2016, 07:41:16 PM »
Would we permit preemptory challenges for the selection of jurors?
I'm personally against such but I imagine many would be in favor of this.
If we're going to have scholars/lay judges/jurors, would it be appropriate to also use them for criminal cases (though convicting by a super-majority in the Ecclesia is also feasible)?
I'd say it would be best to remove criminal cases from mob justice, so yes use the scholars for criminal cases as well should they arise.

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Offline Wast

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2016, 09:10:49 PM »
Peremptory challenges won't work with a small region, unless we allow maybe one per side (we'd need a very large pool of jurors).

I like having the Ecclesia convict by a supermajority in criminal trials - my preference would be to have scholars assembled to rule on a case as infrequently as possible.

Offline Khem

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2016, 09:38:05 PM »
Peremptory challenges won't work with a small region, unless we allow maybe one per side (we'd need a very large pool of jurors).

I like having the Ecclesia convict by a supermajority in criminal trials - my preference would be to have scholars assembled to rule on a case as infrequently as possible.
I mean really how frequent are our criminal cases anyhow?

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Offline Gulliver

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2016, 09:40:25 PM »
Very infrequent, thankfully.

Offline Wast

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2016, 11:15:10 PM »
That's true. My concern was that the judicial system would have to be a bit more complicated if it is to manage both criminal and constitutional challenges , but maybe that isn't a problem.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2016, 09:49:59 PM »
Since to date the only constitutional conflicts we've had are with the executive, and as Eluvatar has pointed out there already exist measures for dealing with those, it may be more expedient to continue without judicial review of the legislature itself and focus on establishing a functional criminal code and procedures for the Ecclesia trying cases.

Some questions that immediately spring to mind for me are:
  • How is the person responsible for conducting the flow of a trial selected?
  • Is this an adversarial or an inquisitorial system?
  • Can anyone make criminal charges or can only the government do so?
I'm unsure about the first one. For the second I feel adversarial is most appropriate, while for the third I am also unsure but leaning towards the government prosecuting. Someone with more experience in NationStates jurisprudence might have a better sense of these things.

As a final note, perhaps we should look into reestablishing the Taijitu Bar (the legal kind, not the kind that serves drinks) in lieu of the scholars proposal if we still feel we need some expertise on these matters for representation and adhering procedure.

Offline Prydania

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Re: Judiciary
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2016, 03:57:25 AM »
    How is the person responsible for conducting the flow of a trial selected?[/list]
    A simple vote would suffice, I would think? If no one wishes to do it than the Citizen-Initiator/Speaker could do it.

    Quote
    Is this an adversarial or an inquisitorial system?
    My preference would be for an inquisitorial system.

    Quote
    Can anyone make criminal charges or can only the government do so?
    I would support any citizen being able make criminal charges. There's no reason to suspect that every case would be heard. Some could be dismissed for lack of evidence/frivolity.