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News: Let this region resound with the song of the Kitten Paw Happy-time, and be permeated with the smell of catnip and pine!

Author Topic: Criminal Code Revisited  (Read 4456 times)

Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2015, 05:16:03 PM »
I'd suggest those against the idea just vote against it if it ever comes to a vote. In the meantime this discussion is about what shape this should take (aside from the already existing ostracism and mediator) and compiling a logical list of offenses. As of this moment it is not illegal for a Citizen to break one of our treaties, seize the delegacy, falsify information, or divulge military secrets. These are the sorts of offenses I would like to see codified. Yes they are all political crimes because as Myro said...
Also, let's be honest, half the things we're talking about banning are already forbidden in the ToS and we're playing a political simulation browser game. What would we put in a criminal code if not offenses against treatied allies and whatnot?
Focusing on anything other just seems silly to me.

Now that I have stated that moving on to the next point of who specifically would sit in judgement of such. I would prefer that we structure this in a way where any trial would be presided over by a neutral party, with the Ecclesia casting votes of guilt or innocence and voting on specific penalties in the same time-frame. I would prefer such voting period be brief, yet the discussion lengthy.
For me, political crimes make no sense.  It takes more than one person to seize a delegacy in another region, so it makes no sense for me to single out one person for such "crime."  Besides, Taijitu is a region that is known for avoiding the NS "raiding/defending" game, anyways.
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2015, 08:13:59 PM »
High Crimes
1. No Taijituan shall post, in an illegal fashion or that would be considered illegal to Taijitu and such Taijituan's "real-world" nation, any post to the regional forum, IRC board, Skype board, or RMB.
2. No Taijituan shall, repeatedly and with malicious intent, harass, bully, torment, stalk, or perform any action to another Taijtuan or group of persons that causes such Taijituan or group of persons anguish, embarrassment, or any other extreme negative emotion.
3. No Taijituan shall post any link to the regional forum, IRC board, Skype board, or RMB that, if clicked, would cause the clicker's computer to be infected with a virus, or would provide the clicker's private information to the original poster.
- Misuse of personal information (i.e. doxxing)
- Impersonation (of a specific person or of a particular role in Taijitu)
- flaming (personal attacks) or spamming (egregiously) on the RMB
- (willfully?) breaking NS rules
- lying in your citizenship application
- lying about an election on the RMB or by telegram
- having been ostracized
- acting in Taijitu as an agent of a foreign power
- couping an ally of ours (TNP/TRR)
- deliberately endorsing a rogue/invader delegate of an ally
  • Seizing the ingame regional delegacy of Taijitu without having been elected Citizen-Delegate;
  • Impersonating a member of the government or armed forces;
  • Unlawfully seizing the delegacy of an allied region of Taijitu;
  • Knowingly submitting false information on a citizenship application;
  • Distributing militia secrets without the permission of the Citizen-Sergeant;
  • Knowingly distributing false information about any election or vote of the Ecclesia;
  • Distributing information which could be used to identify the real life identity of a person with their permission;
  • Disrupting the regional message board of Taijitu with excessive or inappropriate messages;
  • Distributing chat logs or private messages without the permission of all those involved; and
  • Impersonating a private person.

List of Offenses:
  • Breaking the Terms of the forum, NS rules, laws and treaties of Taijitu;
  • Harass, bully, torment, stalk other members;
  • Hate speech, xenophobia, racism, sexism, homophobia;
  • Misuse or distribution of personal information;
  • Distributing chat logs or private messages without the permission of all those involved;
  • Impersonation of a specific person or of a particular role in Taijitu;
  • Abuse of flaming, spamming or inappropriate messages;
  • Willfully misinform regarding someone, some event or official policies of Taijitu;
  • Disrupting Taijitu in any way as an agent of a foreign power;
  • Deliberately seizing the ingame regional delegacy of Taijitu without having been elected Citizen-Delegate;
  • Deliberately participating in a disruption,take-over or raid against an allied region;
  • Deliberately submitting false information on a citizenship application;
  • Disruptive distribution of Militia's activities to foreign agents.

shall we say they're applicable to any of Taijitu's official community platforms ie. RMB, IRC, Forum and official Skype/TS?

Offline AwesomeSaucer

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2015, 08:26:11 PM »
List of Offenses:
  • Breaking the Terms of the forum, NS rules, laws and treaties of Taijitu;
  • Harass, bully, torment, stalk other members;
  • Hate speech, xenophobia, racism, sexism, homophobia;
  • Misuse or distribution of personal information;
  • Distributing chat logs or private messages without the permission of all those involved;
  • Impersonation of a specific person or of a particular role in Taijitu;
  • Abuse of flaming, spamming or inappropriate messages;
  • Willfully misinform regarding someone, some event or official policies of Taijitu;
  • Disrupting Taijitu in any way as an agent of a foreign power;
  • Deliberately seizing the ingame regional delegacy of Taijitu without having been elected Citizen-Delegate;
  • Deliberately participating in a disruption,take-over or raid against an allied region;
  • Deliberately submitting false information on a citizenship application;
  • Disruptive distribution of Militia's activities to foreign agents.

shall we say they're applicable to any of Taijitu's official community platforms ie. RMB, IRC, Forum and official Skype/TS?
Yes.

And the fact that you said "participate" instead of "lead" actually makes me somewhat agree with your list.  I think with a bit of improvement, this list could work!  :D
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Former Citizen-Liaison of Taijitu,

Evan C.


Offline Khem

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2015, 03:51:55 AM »
List of Offenses:
  • Breaking the Terms of the forum, NS rules, laws and treaties of Taijitu;
  • Harass, bully, torment, stalk other members;
  • Hate speech, xenophobia, racism, sexism, homophobia;
  • Misuse or distribution of personal information;
  • Distributing chat logs or private messages without the permission of all those involved;
  • Impersonation of a specific person or of a particular role in Taijitu;
  • Abuse of flaming, spamming or inappropriate messages;
  • Willfully misinform regarding someone, some event or official policies of Taijitu;
  • Disrupting Taijitu in any way as an agent of a foreign power;
  • Deliberately seizing the ingame regional delegacy of Taijitu without having been elected Citizen-Delegate;
  • Deliberately participating in a disruption,take-over or raid against an allied region;
  • Deliberately submitting false information on a citizenship application;
  • Disruptive distribution of Militia's activities to foreign agents.

shall we say they're applicable to any of Taijitu's official community platforms ie. RMB, IRC, Forum and official Skype/TS?
This I approve heartily, it is a good list of offenses. Do we need a paragraph stating that breaking these laws will make one subject to trial by Ecclesia and a trip to the guillotine?

Peoples Confederation of Holy Isles of al'Khem
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Offline Delfos

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2015, 04:55:03 AM »
Guillotine! Guillotine!

Well this says we gotta follow the laws: http://wiki.taijitu.org/wiki/Citizenship_Act

This says we're protected by law, there are public trials and whatnot: http://wiki.taijitu.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Taijitu

This Citizen-Mediator says it exists and deals with complaints against other citizens: http://wiki.taijitu.org/wiki/Judiciary_Act

I think we just have to "explain" how things are processed, who can start a trial of an offense against the "collective"? any citizen can ask for a Mediator to start a case to present to Ecclesia?

Judiciary Procedure
  • Citizens offended by other citizens may request the Ecclesia to elect a Citizen-Mediator to solve the dispute between offended and offenders;
  • The Citizen-Mediator may request Ecclesia to judge a dispute between citizens if no agreement is possible;
  • Any citizen may request the Ecclesia to elect a Citizen-Mediator to present a case to the Ecclesia prosecuting a citizen for an offense to the region of Taijitu;
  • The Ecclesia shall list the offenses to the law of Taijitu.

This might be the easiest way, but you guys' first language and lawyer this up better.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2015, 03:42:10 PM »
Quote from: al'Khem
I'd suggest those against the idea just vote against it if it ever comes to a vote. In the meantime this discussion is about what shape this should take (aside from the already existing ostracism and mediator) and compiling a logical list of offenses.
Not necessarily. My intention for this discussion was for the option of what Funkadelia suggested to be on the, but with keeping in mind that going this route would likely require amending the Bill of Rights. In truth, I am not entirely opposed to handling things on a case by case basis and having the Ecclesia decide when presented with the case whether it constitutes a grievous crime, just a bit wary.

Quote from: AwesomeSaucer
For me, political crimes make no sense.  It takes more than one person to seize a delegacy in another region, so it makes no sense for me to single out one person for such "crime."  Besides, Taijitu is a region that is known for avoiding the NS "raiding/defending" game, anyways.
Any criminal code would, I hope, include a clause stating that abetting a crime is also a crime as in my drafts, so that would cover assisting the seizure of a delegacy among other things. Also, while a portion of the community is not involved in raiding and defending, others (including myself) are and the the Citizens' Militia exists for this purpose.

If we do want to list crimes, again we should cut out things already covered by terms of use and focus on things which are in fact related to NationStates.
Quote from: Delfos
  • Breaking the Terms of the forum, NS rules, laws and treaties of Taijitu;
  • [st]Harass, bully, torment, stalk other members;[/st]
  • [st]Hate speech, xenophobia, racism, sexism, homophobia;[/st]
  • Misuse or distribution of personal information;
  • Distributing chat logs or private messages without the permission of all those involved;
  • Impersonation of a specific person or of a particular role in Taijitu;
  • [st]Abuse of flaming, spamming or inappropriate messages;[/st]
  • Willfully misinform regarding someone, some event or official policies of Taijitu;
  • Disrupting Taijitu in any way as an agent of a foreign power;
  • Deliberately seizing the ingame regional delegacy of Taijitu without having been elected Citizen-Delegate;
  • Deliberately participating in a disruption,take-over or raid against an allied region;
  • Deliberately submitting false information on a citizenship application;
  • Disruptive distribution of Militia's activities to foreign agents.

I do not believe the Citizen-Mediator or any other nominally impartial investigator or arbiter should be leading the prosecution in a criminal case, the two roles are necessarily contradictory. If the Citizen-Mediator is going to be involved in criminal cases as well their role should be limited to finding of fact. Also In selecting a Citizen-Mediator, it might also be good for it to be possible for the parties involved to veto candidates they consider partial (with some limit to avoid there being no viable candidates). Sortition might also be a better alternative to election, and having there be more than a single one in (an empowered jury of sorts) potentially in more serious cases.

Refining on Delfos's rough process what I see now is:

  • A citizen my make a complaint and ask for the selection of a mediator/jury to arbitrate/investigate.
  • Mediator/jury arbitrates/investigates and decides whether a dispute can be resolved "out of court" and if not whether the matter is serious enough to bring to the Ecclesia.
  • If they decide it should be brought to the Ecclesia they present their findings for a vote on whether the complaint holds water (possibly with a super-majority threshold)
  • If guilt is established by the vote, a remedy or punishment is later decided separately. By who I'm not sure.
Note that this works regardless of whether we decide crimes and offenses should be explicitly listed in law or not. It only really changes what the standard for deciding if their is actionable evidence or if someone should be considered guilty is.

A vote establishing guilt could be the precedent for an ostracism vote, though that doesn't really make sense in this context since a single person has already been singled out as guilty. Perhaps a modified version? Alternatively we could drop ostracism or have it as an entirely separate mechanism.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2015, 05:02:36 PM »
I've added an actual poll to get hard numbers on what people feel about whether crimes should have to be written or not. Either way I think the actual process of investigating an accusation will likely be similar.

Offline Delfos

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Re: Criminal Code Revisited
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2015, 05:48:31 PM »
I don't know...I mean...there's more versions than being written or not...written a certain way with penalties or not...maybe an opinion poll could sort this pickle.